# Sanders told to leave restaurant - why no debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660 "2018-06-24T11:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/441 "2018-06-29T23:45:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …lets break this down. > > As an analogy this is a fail. Its a fail because it doesn’t compare something to anything for the purposes of explanation or clarification. What you’ve done instead is offer a suggestion. “If they did this, then that would have been fair” is a suggestion, not an analogy. > > In addition to that there was no reason for the the restaurant to have a sign saying “we don’t serve Republicans” because they didn’t have a policy of not serving Republicans. > > They didn’t have a sign saying “We don’t serve members of the Trump Regime” because they didn’t have a policy of not serving members of the Trump regime. > > What your suggestion shows is that you still have a fundamental disconnect with what actually happened here. > > This wasn’t a planned event. The owner of the restaurant got a call from their staff to say that SHS was dining and made the decision to ask SHS to leave based on the wishes of the staff that were working that night. So the suggestion they could have put up a sign bears no relation to the situation at hand. It nonsense as a solution, and its nonsense as an analogy. Had they barred her from entry before she and her party sat down, I would have more sympathy. The owners could have done that. But to allow her and her party to be seated and place an order and THEN tell them to leave just makes the owners look bad. A customer is a customer where I come from and we treat to treat them all with respect. If you want to have a conversation with her after dinner to lay out your misgivings about the Trump administration, that would have been entirely reasonable. A sign saying “We don’t serve Republicans” would have been an up front show of bigotry, but at least it would have been honest. Again, Sarah Sanders causing some kind of disturbance that evening that hasn’t been reported yet? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/442 "2018-06-30T00:04:36Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Had they barred her from entry before she and her party sat down, I would have more sympathy. The owners could have done that. But to allow her and her party to be seated and place an order and THEN tell them to leave just makes the owners look bad. You should probably read the story. She arrived after the rest of her party was seated. The servers, naturally, didn’t know that she had anything to do with them. Even after she sat down, the staff, not wanting to make an executive decision like that, took it to the owner and the owner decided to ask them to leave. > [@](#): > > A customer is a customer where I come from and we treat to treat them all with respect. I’ve been in retail literally my entire life. I can assure you that not all customers deserve to be treated with respect. > [@](#): > > If you want to have a conversation with her after dinner to lay out your misgivings about the Trump administration, that would have been entirely reasonable. Then the staff would still have been uncomfortable the entire time so it wouldn’t have solved anything. I’m surprised that of all things, people (or maybe it’s just been you, I’ve just been in and out of this thread) are really latching on to the ‘they waited for her to sit’ part. Are you saying that if they stopped her at the door and told her she wasn’t welcome, it would have been okay? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/443 "2018-06-30T00:07:23Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Had they barred her from entry before she and her party sat down, I would have more sympathy. …I still don’t think you understand exactly what took place. > [@](#): > > The owners could have done that. And now its crystal clear that you are still ignorant of the basic facts. The owners couldn’t have done this. The owner wasn’t onsite. The owner was at home. > [@](#): > > But to allow her and her party to be seated and place an order and THEN tell them to leave just makes the owners look bad. If you had been following the story it should be clear to you why this happened. The staff onsite did not have the agency to make the call to tell a customer that they were not going to serve them. They followed the chain of command. They called the owner. The owner came in, listened to the staff, and made a decision. They then did this as discretely and as politely as they could: pulling SHS aside and telling her privately and politely, telling her that her guests were welcome to stay. > [@](#): > > A customer is a customer where I come from and we treat to treat them all with respect. Well we all don’t come from where you come from so we don’t have to play by your rules. I was in the hospitality industry for fifteen years (hence the name “banquet bear.”) I’ve served Prime Ministers, I managed a state dinner for the Queen. I know how this works. SHS was treated with respect. But nothing is more important than your crew. You fight for your crew. You respect your crew. And if your crew feel unsafe or uncomfortable then you stand with your crew. I’ve kicked out guests before because my staff were uncomfortable. Its just part and parcel of what you do as the boss. > [@](#): > > If you want to have a conversation with her after dinner to lay out your misgivings about the Trump administration, that would have been entirely reasonable. That would have been quite rude actually. > [@](#): > > A sign saying “We don’t serve Republicans” would have been an up front show of bigotry, but at least it would have been honest. It wouldn’t have been honest because it would have been blatantly untrue. There was no policy that said “We don’t serve Republicans.” Bringing this up again is disingenuous. > [@](#): > > Again, Sarah Sanders causing some kind of disturbance that evening that hasn’t been reported yet? Just stop it already. You know perfectly well she wasn’t asked to leave because she caused a disturbance. We know why she was asked to leave. Stop pretending that we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/444 "2018-06-30T00:07:44Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > These are all excellent reasons—to punish Trump. And everyone close to him that allows him to stay in power. You really don’t get this? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/445 "2018-06-30T00:34:21Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Apparently there’s more than one of us here who doesn’t understand analogies. Could you show where we are talking about shooting her? If not then stop talking about shooting the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/446 "2018-06-30T00:35:03Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > You should probably read the story. She arrived after the rest of her party was seated. The servers, naturally, didn’t know that she had anything to do with them. Even after she sat down, the staff, not wanting to make an executive decision like that, took it to the owner and the owner decided to ask them to leave. > > I’ve been in retail literally my entire life. I can assure you that not all customers deserve to be treated with respect. > > Then the staff would still have been uncomfortable the entire time so it wouldn’t have solved anything. > > I’m surprised that of all things, people (or maybe it’s just been you, I’ve just been in and out of this thread) are really latching on to the ‘they waited for her to sit’ part. > > Are you saying that if they stopped her at the door and told her she wasn’t welcome, it would have been okay? It wouldn’t have really been okay, but it would have been less not okay. It would have been less embarrassing for the Sanders party. But perhaps embarrassment was the point. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/447 "2018-06-30T00:37:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I still don’t think you understand exactly what took place. > > And now its crystal clear that you are still ignorant of the basic facts. > > The owners couldn’t have done this. The owner wasn’t onsite. The owner was at home. > > If you had been following the story it should be clear to you why this happened. The staff onsite did not have the agency to make the call to tell a customer that they were not going to serve them. They followed the chain of command. They called the owner. The owner came in, listened to the staff, and made a decision. They then did this as discretely and as politely as they could: pulling SHS aside and telling her privately and politely, telling her that her guests were welcome to stay. > > Well we all don’t come from where you come from so we don’t have to play by your rules. I was in the hospitality industry for fifteen years (hence the name “banquet bear.”) I’ve served Prime Ministers, I managed a state dinner for the Queen. I know how this works. SHS was treated with respect. But nothing is more important than your crew. You fight for your crew. You respect your crew. And if your crew feel unsafe or uncomfortable then you stand with your crew. I’ve kicked out guests before because my staff were uncomfortable. Its just part and parcel of what you do as the boss. > > That would have been quite rude actually. > > It wouldn’t have been honest because it would have been blatantly untrue. There was no policy that said “We don’t serve Republicans.” Bringing this up again is disingenuous. > > Just stop it already. You know perfectly well she wasn’t asked to leave because she caused a disturbance. We know why she was asked to leave. Stop pretending that we don’t. I get the feeling you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/448 "2018-06-30T00:39:32Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Could you show where we are talking about shooting her? If not then stop talking about shooting the messenger. It’s an expression. Sheesh. It means punishing the one who bears the bad news. Like, I dunno, a press secretary for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/449 "2018-06-30T00:47:44Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It’s an expression. Sheesh. It means punishing the one who bears the bad news. Like, I dunno, a press secretary for instance. Also not great with sarcasm, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/450 "2018-06-30T00:48:43Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I get the feeling you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. …this is the Great Debates forum. Debating is what we do here. I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing. You’ve said stuff that is objectively wrong and I’m pointing it out. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/451 "2018-06-30T01:34:51Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It wouldn’t have really been okay, but it would have been less not okay. It would have been less embarrassing for the Sanders party. But perhaps embarrassment was the point. As has been stated many times, that wasn’t an option so it really doesn’t matter. Just like when my crew tells me that there’s some issue with a customer. By the time I get out there and assess the situation, the person has already been in the store for a few minutes. Even if they see the person coming in, it still takes time for me to make a decision and act on it. If I’m not there, you can count on it being at least 15 minutes or so before I can deal with it. > [@Biffster](#): > > I get the feeling you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Him? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this is the Great Debates forum. Debating is what we do here. I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing. You’ve said stuff that is objectively wrong and I’m pointing it out. [Argument Clinic joke] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/452 "2018-06-30T01:38:24Z")
No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/453 "2018-06-30T01:48:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, it isn’t. An argument isn’t just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. An argument is an intellectual process… Fits rather well here. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/454 "2018-06-30T01:56:22Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > These are all excellent reasons—to punish Trump. And the people who help him accomplish these goals. Sanders is not at all innocent in these events. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/455 "2018-06-30T02:14:46Z")
A few lies from the mouth of Sarah Huckabee Sanders (not quoting Trump, but simply lying on his behalf): Says diversity visa immigrants are not vetted. — PolitiFact National on Thursday, November 2nd, 2017 _(Diversity visa applicants are all vetted.)_ “I think if you look to Chicago, where you had over 4,000 victims of gun-related crimes last year, they have the strictest gun laws in the country. That certainly hasn’t helped there.” — PolitiFact Illinois on Tuesday, October 3rd, 2017 _(Multiple lies in one statement.)_ “The president in no way, form or fashion has ever promoted or encouraged violence.” — PolitiFact National on Wednesday, July 5th, 2017 _(How could any person make this claim with a straight dface after Trump’s repeated claims for violence?)_ “Everybody acts like President Trump is the one that came up with this idea. … There are multiple news outlets that have reported” former President Barack Obama ordered wiretapping on Trump. — PolitiFact National on Sunday, March 5th, 2017 _No news outlet (including Fox) had ever made such a claim, except when quoting Trump.)_ These are not the words of a spokesperson simply conveying the message of her boss, they are outright lies that no spokesperson should ever spout. Contrast her behavior with that of James Schwab who [resigned as spokesperson for ICE](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/13/ice-spokesman-resigns-over-false-statements-by-top-officials-about-calif-immigrant-arrests/?utm_term=.097d222ff3b7) after being told to promote the lies of Sessions regarding the San Francisco mayor after ICE raids in that city. He admits to spinning the message for multiple bosses over the years, but when asked to lie (as Sanders does, routinely), he gave up his job. Sanders is not “just doing her job.” She is a proven liar who is joining Trump in attempting to mislead the American people. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/456 "2018-06-30T02:45:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Also not great with sarcasm, I see. We really need a sarcasm font. Or standardize the winkie emoji use. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/457 "2018-06-30T02:47:42Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > An argument isn’t just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. An argument is an intellectual process… > > Fits rather well here. Ah, but that’s not just saying, “No, it isn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/458 "2018-06-30T06:01:50Z")
A Canadian example for comparison: a manager is fired for refusing to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. [Vancouver restaurant manager fired for refusing service to customer wearing ‘MAGA’ hat | Globalnews.ca](https://globalnews.ca/news/4305235/manager-fired-maga-hat/) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/459 "2018-06-30T06:22:02Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > A Canadian example for comparison: a manager is fired for refusing to serve a customer wearing a MAGA hat. > > [Vancouver restaurant manager fired for refusing service to customer wearing ‘MAGA’ hat | Globalnews.ca](https://globalnews.ca/news/4305235/manager-fired-maga-hat/) That literally has nothing to do with this case. The employee legally didn’t serve someone with a MAGA hat and was legally fired for (possibly) breaking the company’s own policy. Even if it was law, it’s a different country and wouldn’t apply in the states. It’s also about Trump and not, as you say, ‘the messenger’. We can point to businesses all day long that will serve anyone and/or fire employees for refusing to serve customers they have an issue with. I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make here. Actually, I should back up a little bit here. I’m assuming that Canadians also have the right to refuse service. I could be wrong, I don’t know much about Canadian law. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/460 "2018-06-30T06:45:51Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That literally has nothing to do with this case. The employee legally didn’t serve someone with a MAGA hat and was legally fired for (possibly) breaking the company’s own policy. > > Even if it was law, it’s a different country and wouldn’t apply in the states. It’s also about Trump and not, as you say, ‘the messenger’. > > We can point to businesses all day long that will serve anyone and/or fire employees for refusing to serve customers they have an issue with. > > I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make here. > > Actually, I should back up a little bit here. I’m assuming that Canadians also have the right to refuse service. I could be wrong, I don’t know much about Canadian law. I think Canadians on the whole may be a whole lot more tolerant of differences in political opinion and about customer service in general. I could be wrong, but being Canadian, my experience is that tolerance is an important part of having a job. I don’t have to like or agree with the person who comes to my store, but I should not discriminate against him or her just for being who they are. They are still a customer, and if I can afford to write off customers, I won’t be in business for very long. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660.md?page=24)