# Sanders told to leave restaurant - why no debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660 "2018-06-24T11:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/161 "2018-06-25T12:51:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why shouldn’t a restaurant be obliged to sell “standard” coffee or menu items to customers regardless of political orientation? I didn’t say anything about "political orientation, rather I said “political public figures”. But if you want to make an argument one way or the other, please do so, and I’d be happy to give you my opinion on it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/162 "2018-06-25T12:54:30Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Alas, SHS’s initial tweet was made after the incident had already been made public. > > The ‘86 Sarah Huckabee Sanders’ image was posted at 2:16am on Jun 23 by Brennan Gilmore. SHS made her initial tweet at 10:53am on Jun 23. The story was already out there. SHS was not the instigator of the online story. You may be right, IF Mr. Gilmore posted this somewhere that garnered a fair amount of attention on its own, or surely would have on its own. “Out there”? “Online story”? Obviously Mr. Gilmore doesn’t have the huge bully pulpit (ha!) of the literal spokesperson of the most powerful office on Earth — but I’ll concede your point IF he was commanding a sizable audience with his posting. I honestly have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/163 "2018-06-25T13:02:15Z")
ETA: You used the phrase “made public.” Am I (for example) making something public, through this very messsge board posting? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/164 "2018-06-25T13:27:22Z")
I’m not exactly a liberal, but I haven’t mentioned it because I don’t particularly care about it. I think you OUGHT to be able to serve or not serve ANYBODY in your business, without any stated reason, then let capitalism sort it out (and capitalism WILL sort this one out). ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/165 "2018-06-25T13:46:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Its not just that, there were several LGBT employees at the restaurant who didn’t feel comfortable serving SHS. > > I’m kind of drawn. I know its a slippery slope and all, and we have laws because lots of white businesses didn’t want to serve blacks and jews in the past. > > I’m not sure where I stand on this issue. Your political views are a choice. Being black, or gay, not so much. This is why laws protect those classes. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/166 "2018-06-25T14:08:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and now the President of the United States is weighing in. What a fucking world we live in. > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1011212766487728133) > > Sigh. Which is impressive given the shithole reviews Trump properties have gotten for years. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/167 "2018-06-25T14:39:00Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I’m not exactly a liberal, but I haven’t mentioned it because I don’t particularly care about it. I think you OUGHT to be able to serve or not serve ANYBODY in your business, without any stated reason, then let capitalism sort it out (and capitalism WILL sort this one out). In principle, I agree. When businesses send away customers based on some shared identifier, someone will realize that they also refuse to accept money people are willing to spend, which means there is an opening for a business. Of course, this approach works best in an environment that allows an easy entry into the market; if the threshold is so high that it takes serious time, ressources and effort to close the gap, the exclusion could have serious repercussions for the discriminated. In an emergency, even a temporary exclusion from products or services can have dire consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/168 "2018-06-25T14:45:05Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > I > > In an emergency, even a temporary exclusion from products or services can have dire consequences. I agree, in general, but there are very few things in life I consider “emergencies.” You’re gushing blood? Emergency. House burning down? Emergency. Seat at a restaurant table? Wedding cake? NOT any emergency. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/169 "2018-06-25T15:12:32Z")
> [@The Presdient of the United States](#): > > The Red Hen Restaurant should focus more on cleaning its filthy canopies, doors and windows (badly needs a paint job) rather than refusing to serve a fine person like Sarah Huckabee Sanders. I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it is dirty on the inside! He seems to have little faith in the ability of his Campaign Senior Adviser’s ability to choose clean restaurants. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Trumpists may be delighted to learn that the Red Hen restaurant shut its doors the following evening — the owner had already received three death threats. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/170 "2018-06-25T15:27:14Z")
Experience has taught us that the Free Market does not, in fact, sort out these problems, at least not within any one person’s lifetime. Just look at any of the segregated businesses in the Jim Crow-era South. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/171 "2018-06-25T15:30:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Trumpists may be delighted to learn that the Red Hen restaurant shut its doors the following evening — the owner had already received three death threats. That’s terrible. The owner apparently isn’t paying much attention to the events of the last couple years if she didn’t see that coming. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/172 "2018-06-25T15:38:24Z")
“Americans are waking up to the realization, as Germans once did, that 1/3rd of their people would destroy another 1/3rd, while another 1/3rd watched” - Werner Herzog (That latter third are those upset about “civility”) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/173 "2018-06-25T15:57:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The baker in question didn’t discriminate based on orientation - it was a political and moral message he was being forced to include. The moral message being “gays shouldn’t be allowed to get married.” The idea that the baker issue isn’t an issue of discrimination is laughable. Now, if a group came to the baker and said, “We want to have a big rally to legalize gay marriage, and we want you to make the cake for this political event,” I’m fine with the baker saying, no way. But the sole issue here is really that gay people won’t be served wedding cakes, period, which makes it an issue of discrimination. Further, if gay people come in to the shop who were well-known Jill Stein supporters, I have no problem with them being told to take a hike on the basis that they are Jill Stein supporters. But not on the basis that they are gay. So, SHS wasn’t in any way being discriminated against for being a woman, white, Christian, or conservative. She was treated differently because she carries out her job to lie to people and insult other Americans with a great deal of zeal. That’s much different. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/174 "2018-06-25T16:07:35Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > “Americans are waking up to the realization, as Germans once did, that 1/3rd of their people would destroy another 1/3rd, while another 1/3rd watched” - Werner Herzog > > (That latter third are those upset about “civility”) Yeah, but which one are the other 1/3rds? I’m a frequenter of yahoo comment section, and I regularly see both sides predicting and seemingly relishing in the idea of a civil war. Small sample, but still. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/175 "2018-06-25T16:27:54Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > That’s terrible. The owner apparently isn’t paying much attention to the events of the last couple years if she didn’t see that coming. Besides, look at how she was dressed. . ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/176 "2018-06-25T17:45:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > As noted above, this doesn’t violate any ethics rules. She did not receive a benefit by posting it from her government account _that she would not have received by posting it from her private account_. I can’t find anything resembling that last clause in the ethics regulations; I left my Penumbral Emanation Spectacles in my other jacket. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/177 "2018-06-25T17:55:04Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Defend herself from what? There’s no indication that anyone would have ever heard about this if Sanders hadn’t made it public. It’s a tactic I call “preemptive retaliation”. If Sanders was defending herself, it’s all the other party’s fault and not Sanders’s. But if there was no further attack coming, and you’ve presented no evidence that there was, then the idea that she was defending herself is baseless. It’s just a way to deflect blame. Actually, one of the restaurant’s employees also made it public, but I’m not sure how much traction it would have gotten if Sanders hadn’t publicized it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/178 "2018-06-25T17:56:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AFAICT it is going the other way - the baker should be coerced, but not the restaurant owner, because Trump. > > The “debate” is mostly trying to cast around to find some way to justify “you can be forced to make them a cake but not serve them a cup of coffee”. It’s not really a double standard; it’s the same standard as always - people should be free to express their opinions as long as they agree with me. > > Regards, > Shodan Trump adherents are not a protected class. Gay people are. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/179 "2018-06-25T17:59:52Z")
> [@Manlob](#): > > Compare to the case of the two men who sat in Starbuck’s without ordering and refused to leave when asked. Are the same people defending the store manager for that case and this one? A business is justified in refusing service and asking someone to leave if they are impacting the business, a point that’s been made several times before. > [@Manlob](#): > > It would be more reasonable if SHS was turned away at the door, but having the party sit down, wait for menus, wait for waiter to take order, start eating the appetizers, and then get asked to leave when the meal is almost ready caused a lot of unnecessary inconvenience. When OJ Simpson was refused service at a restaurant, I don’t think they let him sit down and order, then tantalized him by throwing him out right before the meal was ready. Why are you assuming that this was some calculated strategy? Why are you assuming that the person responsible for seating them had any authority to turn them away, or any interest in raising it with the owner? Doesn’t it make more sense to think that it took a while for the majority of staff – especially the non-floor staff – to become aware that Sanders was there, and for them to then make their objections known to the owner? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/180 "2018-06-25T18:10:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But the sole issue here is really that gay people won’t be served wedding cakes, period, which makes it an issue of discrimination. This is factually incorrect. The baker in question did not refuse service to gay customers, period. He offered to sell them any other cake. > [@](#): > > Further, if gay people come in to the shop who were well-known Jill Stein supporters, I have no problem with them being told to take a hike on the basis that they are Jill Stein supporters. But not on the basis that they are gay. Then we don’t disagree. Merchants should be allowed to discriminate against those who support things they find distasteful, or with which they disagree. Even if they are gay, or Trump supporters. Or if they are wearing a MAGA hat, or a BLM t-shirt, or a Jill Stein button. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t say anything about "political orientation, rather I said “political public figures”. But if you want to make an argument one way or the other, please do so, and I’d be happy to give you my opinion on it. I’ve already made the argument. Ms. Sanders was discriminated against because of her political orientation, which is that of a Trump supporter. Of course the inestimable [Maxine Water](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/06/25/maxine_waters_god_is_on_our_side.html)s thinks it’s a fine idea, because she believes that God is on her side, to harass members of the Trump administration in public everywhere. No doubt she would agree that the same tactics are appropriate directed against, say, her, or [Obama](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/mexican-kids-held-for-months-as-punishment-for-border-crossing/2015/03/10/311d319a-b2f2-11e4-bf39-5560f3918d4b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.591fd8e260f7). Or perhaps not. 😃 Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660.md?page=10)