# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/201 "2015-07-23T00:35:53Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > My position is that this was an unlawful order. The traffic violation at this point was settled, the officer using his professional judgement had already decided the written warning was enough to ensure the girl would start using her blinkers. That’s not what the law says, though. The law says that the officer can effect an arrest until the citation has been signed, not “…until he decided…” using his “professional judgement.” Unless you have some case law cite to your claim? > [@](#): > > It’s clear from the video she got lippy with the officer, which she is _entitled_ to do under the 1[sup]st[/sup] Amendment. If her words had _anything_ to do with the order to step out of the car … > > … then the officer violated the most sacred of all our liberties … the very foundation of what it means to be an American … to use his power to repress what is _completely_ lawful in the United States (except in the very restrictive case of eminence). > > The US Constitution trumps Texas Law in all cases and at all times in matters explicitly stated … like Free Speech. That’s not a defense to an arrest, though. An arrested person is certainly entitled to claim that his arrest is a pretext and premised upon a desire to suppress a First Amendment right, but he cannot assert that claim to avoid the arrest. Unless you have some cite to the contrary? > [@](#): > > I wonder … if this was a pick-up truck with an (empty) gun rack and a couple confederate flags … and the driver played nose guard for the high school football team until all the centers in the league were hospitalized … would the officer done _anything_ different? For the purposes of legal analysis of THIS situation, your wondering is utterly irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/202 "2015-07-23T00:38:19Z")
So I’ve seen a photo circulating on social media that’s supposedly a picture of the cell, gotten from what seems to be a TV news story. Can anyone vouch for it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/203 "2015-07-23T00:40:12Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/204 "2015-07-23T00:42:05Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So I’ve seen a photo circulating on social media that’s supposedly a picture of the cell, gotten from what seems to be a TV news story. Can anyone vouch for it? [http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/photos/f955cda39da041c883233b88b3238043/637574479647](http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/photos/f955cda39da041c883233b88b3238043/637574479647) somewhere in the middle of the photo gallery ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/205 "2015-07-23T00:46:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The absence of footage is due to absence of activity, since the cameras were motion-activated. But I guess someone wearing Potter’s invisibility cloak might have fooled the cameras and strangled Bland. You could game that if you knew what you were doing. Would you call off the inquest for your loved one based on that? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/206 "2015-07-23T00:50:38Z")
There is a real problem with this guy never saying what is happening that makes an arrest happen. She declined to put out the cigarette as is her right, and that means she is to be arrested? He was behaving irrationally. Why is the PD saying the arrest was bad? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/207 "2015-07-23T00:51:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The absence of footage is due to absence of activity, since the cameras were motion-activated. It \*could \*be. It’s not the only possible (or even plausible) explanation. That’s what I mean by absence of evidence not being evidence of absence. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/208 "2015-07-23T00:54:32Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So I’ve seen a photo circulating on social media that’s supposedly a picture of the cell, gotten from what seems to be a TV news story. Can anyone vouch for it? On TV, CNN showed what they reported as the cell she died in. One _Hell_ of a nice cell for a jail! Or I would _assume._ :rolleyes: Yeah. Just assuming. 😉 I mean, how would \*I \*know? :o ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/209 "2015-07-23T00:55:33Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You could game that if you knew what you were doing. Would you call off the inquest for your loved one based on that? Sure. From Mythbusters episode 59: An ultrasonic motion detector can be fooled by holding a bedsheet in front of you: confirmed The bedsheet absorbed enough of the ultrasonic waves to mitigate any return signals. An ultrasonic motion detector can be fooled by moving extremely slowly: confirmed Although it took Kari 20 minutes to cross a relatively short hallway, she moved slow enough to stay below the detector’s sampling threshold. Excuse me if I find the cops doing that implausible. As for inquest: of course there is one and should be one. Medical exam, forensic examination of the video tape and video camera, and forensics of the cell all should be conducted. But the Occam’s razor points to suicide. I will be very surprised if it is found not to be. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/210 "2015-07-23T01:00:17Z")
Or they could have, yanno, deleted the film. Or shut off their camera. Sounds simpler. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/211 "2015-07-23T01:03:28Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > There is a real problem with this guy never saying what is happening that makes an arrest happen. She declined to put out the cigarette as is her right, and that means she is to be arrested? He was behaving irrationally. Do you believe that in order for an arrest to be valid, the office must inform the suspect of the grounds for the arrest? > [@](#): > > Why is the PD saying the arrest was bad? I doubt they’re saying the arrest was illegal. I imagine they’re saying the arrest violated department policy. This is almost certainly true. When you say “bad,” do you mean an illegal arrest, or an arrest that violated department policy? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/212 "2015-07-23T01:03:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not what the law says, though. The law says that the officer can effect an arrest until the citation has been signed, not “…until he decided…” using his “professional judgement.” > > Unless you have some case law cite to your claim?.. Yes, he can effect an arrest. Has to have a reason, though. Don’t have the case law on that, I admit. What was that reason? He didn’t intend to arrest her when he was filling out his paperwork, so whatever the reason was, it happened after that. And he wasn’t arresting her for violent assault on his person, because that hadn’t happened yet, if ever it did. So, a crime was committed? Or there was a valid suspicion of a crime? OK, what was it? And no one wants to hazard a theory as to why he turned his car around to pursue her after spotting her car? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/213 "2015-07-23T01:11:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you believe that in order for an arrest to be valid, the office must inform the suspect of the grounds for the arrest?.. I believe those grounds must exist. Don’t have the case law for that, either. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/214 "2015-07-23T01:11:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, it’s not. > > Entrapment happens when the conduct of the police coerces the subject into committing the crime. Well, in this case, it was an arrest… for? … Apparently for resisting arrest. The stupid hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/215 "2015-07-23T01:12:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Or they could have, yanno, deleted the film. Or shut off their camera. Sounds simpler. … and moronic. Both actions would be easily found out. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/216 "2015-07-23T01:13:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/photos/f955cda39da041c883233b88b3238043/637574479647](http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/photos/f955cda39da041c883233b88b3238043/637574479647) > > somewhere in the middle of the photo gallery Yes, that’s it. Then the question I’ve seen asked is, do jail cells usually get unsecured garbage cans with two bags (the one currently in the can, and the one used in the hanging)? (There’s also talk of the partition used being shorter than Bland, but movies and TV have taught me that people can hang themselves by kneeling, so that’s not necessarily probative.) > [@Terr](#): > > … and moronic. Both actions would be easily found out. Yes, it would be. But there’s an incident mentioned in the law enforcement Pit thread where exactly this said to have happened, so stupid doesn’t necessarily stop people. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/217 "2015-07-23T01:14:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And no one wants to hazard a theory as to why he turned his car around to pursue her after spotting her car? It was his job? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/218 "2015-07-23T01:24:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The answer to your irrelevant questions are: there is generally no offense created by smoking a tobacco cigarette, and thus no reasonable suspicion or probable cause that arises from the failure to extinguish it. > > Now to return to the question I asked you: > > To review: the putative arrest would be for the crime of an illegal lane change, and probable cause existed for that arrest. As explained previously, Texas law permits such an arrest even when the maximum punishment is a fine. > > When an officer is planning to make an arrest, the command “Extinguish your cigarette,” is a lawful one for reasons of officer safety, since placing someone in handcuffs while they are carrying a burning ember is self-evidently unsafe. > > Can you explain specifically why you believe the order was illegal? > > No, under Texas law that’s not murder. Can you quote the specific provision under Texas Penal Code 19.02 or 19.03 into which you believe this fits? > > Now, again to be clear, this officer’s actions were absolutely unjustified and a horrible, horrible example of police work. They almost certainly violated his department policy. > > I am not defending his actions as justified or right. > > I am suggesting that the order can be defended as lawful, and I am strongly arguing that the death is not murder on the part of the arresting officer, based on the facts adduced thus far. There was no order to extinguish her cigarrette; it was a request. She had every right to say no to his request, didn’t she? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/219 "2015-07-23T01:27:52Z")
Incidentally, [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=20&v=86SR84lRMAc) shows that she drove straight through the stop sign immediately before the policeman went after her. And no, he didn’t mention it as the reason for stopping her. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/220 "2015-07-23T01:28:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, a crime was committed? Or there was a valid suspicion of a crime? OK, what was it? > > And no one wants to hazard a theory as to why he turned his car around to pursue her after spotting her car? The crime was improper lane change, read back the earlier part of the thread in Texas this is an arrestable offense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=12)