# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/301 "2015-07-23T04:14:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Um, I don’t think there was any tasing. > > And it is not “obscure”. If a police officer, during a traffic stop, asks you to step out of the car, you step out of the car. Why would you think that you should be able to refuse? Is there some inherent “right” to remain in your car? I may have been wrong about the tasing, but my point remains. In answer to your other question, I’m sure it depends on State laws, and she was freshly transitioned from Illinois. As an American citizen, you do have rights when pulled over by a traffic cop. Texas’ laws are mind-blowing. I’m actually shocked such laws allow what happened from a legal standpoint. It’s substantially obscure for an out-of-stater. Personally, I’ve only ever been pulled over for speeding. And a couple times I was involved in fender benders. I’ve never been asked to step out of the vehicle. If I was, I’d most likely comply, but for failing to signal while changing lanes in the middle of the day, I’d really have some _serious_ questions before I did. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/302 "2015-07-23T04:17:18Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > In answer to your other question, I’m sure it depends on State laws, and she was freshly transitioned from Illinois. As I cited, it is a US Supreme Court decision. Does not depend on State laws. > [@](#): > > As an American citizen, you do have rights when pulled over by a traffic cop. You definitely do. But why you’d think that those rights include refusing to get out of your car when ordered by the police to do so, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/303 "2015-07-23T04:21:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Watch the video before opining about who is at fault. I mean, it’s just a click away. How hard is that to do? I watched it. I now have \*less \*sympathy for Bland. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The dash cam clearly shows the police officer making a U turn to follow Bland’s car. She was, at the time, driving on a two lane road, therefore there had been no illegal lane change. Why did he turn around to follow her in the first place? > > Why did he make the U turn and come up behind her in the first place. She clearly blew through that STOP sign. I believe that’s why he turned around and followed. > [@monstro](#): > > There wasn’t anything assholish about Bland prior to the cop yanking her out of her car. > > This is NOT a case of both sides being wrong. Only one side was wrong here. It wasn’t Sandra Bland. Its interesting how the same video can be interpreted so differently by different people. She was clearly an asshole from the start, and dragged him right down into asshole. Sure, bad on him. Cop should know better. But he didn’t hang her in her cell. And if she wasn’t an asshole, she never would have been in that cell. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/304 "2015-07-23T04:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > …And it is not “obscure”. If a police officer, during a traffic stop, asks you to step out of the car, you step out of the car. Why would you think that you should be able to refuse? Dunno, somehow it doesn’t quite click. How about you post that again, but in German? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/305 "2015-07-23T04:26:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I cited, it is a US Supreme Court decision. Does not depend on State laws. > You definitely do. But why you’d think that those rights include refusing to get out of your car when ordered by the police to do so, I have no idea. She was fucking confused. Like anyone would be. It went from failing to signal. To would you mind puttiing out your cigarette. To step out of the car. again, WTF? Who is this guy? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/306 "2015-07-23T04:29:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Um, I don’t think there was any tasing. > > And it is not “obscure”. If a police officer, during a traffic stop, asks you to step out of the car, you step out of the car. Why would you think that you should be able to refuse? Is there some inherent “right” to remain in your car? > > If a police officer motions to you that you should pull over, or drives behind you with blinkers on, do you think you should be able to just drive and ignore him? Is that “obscure” as well? It’s obscure if you don’t say it out loud. He would not say out loud why he was ordering her. That has to be his job. Within seconds he had assaulted and battered her after all. It must have been worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/307 "2015-07-23T04:29:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You are kidding, right? I’m a hispanic who grew up in the south west in the 60’s and 70’s. MY parents taught me that if a (white) cop pulls you over you freaking do what they say, you smile and be polite and then you drive away…alive. Nice story, bro. But it doesn’t answer my question. So let me try another one. Ten years from now, when the mere failure to plaster on that fake ass smile of yours becomes today’s equivalent to “his hand dropped to his waistband and I feared for my life”, will you be outraged by this? Concerned even just a little bit? Or will you be joining in the chorus of idiots saying “…if only he had addressed the cop as ‘sir’ like he was supposed to, then he, his three kids, and his wife would still be alive”. Me, personally? I’m not willing to give up any of my humanity. The day shucking and jiving become prerequistes to having any reasonable expectation of staying unharmed by the police is the day I get the hell out of here. All the ideals that this country supposedly was founded on mean nothing if we can’t trust the police to control themselves when confronted with basic human emotion. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/308 "2015-07-23T04:30:19Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I watched it. I now have \*less \*sympathy for Bland. > > She clearly blew through that STOP sign. I believe that’s why he turned around and followed. > > Its interesting how the same video can be interpreted so differently by different people. She was clearly an asshole from the start, and dragged him right down into asshole. Sure, bad on him. Cop should know better. > > But he didn’t hang her in her cell. And if she wasn’t an asshole, she never would have been in that cell. So you agree that blowing through a stop sign or failing to signal should be punishable by 3 days or more of jail time, plus $5,000 bail? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/309 "2015-07-23T04:38:40Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > So you agree that blowing through a stop sign or failing to signal should be punishable by 3 days or more of jail time, plus $5,000 bail? No one has said that. It’s also not what happened. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/310 "2015-07-23T04:44:33Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No one has said that. It’s also not what happened. But the “arrest” didn’t happen until she refused to put out her cigarette. What else could be the grounds for arrest (besides resisting “arrest” when the idiot cop decided to employ physical force)? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/311 "2015-07-23T04:45:15Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:89, topic:725859”] AFAICT, the escalation went: [ul] [li]Bad driver commits a minor offense[/li][li]Police officer pulls said bad driver over[/li][li]Police officer decides to issue a warning citation[/li][li]Bad driver begins mouthing off…[/ul][/li][/quote] Only one (major) problem with your data list. The last line should read, “_Bad cop_ begins mouthing off.” There is no reason to object to the driver smoking in her car. It doesn’t affect his presentation of the warning notice or communication between the parties. It’s only a way to excuse and invoke a power trip by a deranged, psychotic man with too much authority for the public good. WTF difference does it make if she is smoking in her car? Is that enough reason to order her out of the car, taze, or arrest her? The fucking cop was totally out of control; he was looking for an excuse to abuse the “bitch,” and he picked the wrong bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/312 "2015-07-23T04:45:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > There wasn’t anything assholish about Bland prior to the cop yanking her out of her car. He asked her what was wrong and she told him in a calm, articulate way why exactly she was pissed off. If he didn’t want the truth, he shouldn’t have asked her that question. And he was an asshole for goading her with “Are you finished?” > > He asked her to put out a cigarette, even though he was five seconds away from having nothing more to do with her. That makes it an assholish request. But she was not assholish for saying no. Assertive, yes. Brave, yes. But not assholish. > > Yes, after she was pulled out of the car she lost her cool. From her perspective (and anyone with half a brain cell), she’s being arrested for no good reason. That’s not assholish. That’s called being a human being. I don’t think human beings should have to suppress all emotion when interacting with police officers. If police officers are allowed to be fearful and angry, so should citizens. > > He was an asshole for slapping her in cuffs, manhandling her repeatedly, and throwing her in jail over some trumped-up bullshit. > > This is NOT a case of both sides being wrong. Only one side was wrong here. It wasn’t Sandra Bland. Agreed. Just because this woman spoke up which may not be my inclination, she did absolutely nothing wrong. People are looking at this through the prism of their own experiences with cops. But see, I will respect authority if they afford me the same courtesy. This cop baited Bland, knowing full well that she was exasperated at the reason for being pulled over. If a cop asked me if I was all right, I’d say no, I was just pulled over for a lane change violation? And yeah, nobody is going to convince me this wasn’t about race. A black woman having the audacity to ask questions ? She needed a whooping for that. That autopsy ordered by the family is going to be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/313 "2015-07-23T04:49:28Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > In answer to your other question, I’m sure it depends on State laws, and she was freshly transitioned from Illinois. As an American citizen, you do have rights when pulled over by a traffic cop. Texas’ laws are mind-blowing. I’m actually shocked such laws allow what happened from a legal standpoint. It’s substantially obscure for an out-of-stater. I don’t think the law is obscure in that it is the law of the land in most states. There are exceptions to Mimms though. As **Richard Parker** notes here: > [@Opening Car Doors & Police Search Warrant](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-car-doors-police-search-warrant/710892/11): > > Mimms only means ordering them out of the car is legal under the Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution. It doesn’t make it legal under state law, and it would be illegal in Vermont, Massachusetts, and probably other jurisdictions that don’t follow Mimms as to their state constitutional protections. I’ve looked up the[Massachusettes case where the state explicitly rejected Mimms](http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/429/429mass658.html), however I was unable to validate the other states that \*\*Richard \*\*mentions. None the less, I have no reason to doubt him and based on his very accurate posting history and accept that Mimms is not the law of the land for all states where those states have stronger protections. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/314 "2015-07-23T04:51:49Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > But the “arrest” didn’t happen until she refused to put out her cigarette. What else could be the grounds for arrest (besides resisting “arrest” when the idiot cop decided to employ physical force)? When she put out the cigarette is a red herring. She was arrested for resisting. And no, she didn’t have a “right” to resist. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/315 "2015-07-23T04:53:52Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > But the “arrest” didn’t happen until she refused to put out her cigarette. No. It happened when she refused to get out of her car when lawfully ordered. Hell, it may not have even happened then. The cop may well have still let her go with a warning after giving her a little shit. But no, in the video I watched, she escalates pretty much every chance she gets. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/316 "2015-07-23T04:57:36Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Agreed. Just because this woman spoke up which may not be my inclination, she did absolutely nothing wrong. People are looking at this through the prism of their own experiences with cops. But see, I will respect authority if they afford me the same courtesy. > > This cop baited Bland, knowing full well that she was exasperated at the reason for being pulled over. If a cop asked me if I was all right, I’d say no, I was just pulled over for a lane change violation? > > And yeah, nobody is going to convince me this wasn’t about race. A black woman having the audacity to ask questions ? She needed a whooping for that. That autopsy ordered by the family is going to be interesting. I came away with the impression he was trying to give her a break, and she “wasn’t having it” (like someone said earlier). Shit went all wrong. Unfortunate all around. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/317 "2015-07-23T05:02:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I cited, it is a US Supreme Court decision. Does not depend on State laws. You’re wrong here. As I posted in #313, certain states have rejected Mimms and its progeny on the grounds that it conflicts with their state constitutions. So while ordering the exit from the vehicle for no reason may be permissible under the federal consitution, it is forbidden in [Mass](http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/429/429mass658.html) > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, the Commonwealth argues that we should now expressly embrace Mimms, and its corollary, the ruling in Wilson, and make plain that our art. 14 case law coincides with the Mimms-Wilson holdings under the Fourth Amendment. > > We have not adopted Minims. [Vermont](http://law.justia.com/cases/vermont/supreme-court/2003/2002-028op.html), [Hawaii](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10860388804819509451&q=State+v.+Mendez&hl=en&as_sdt=806&as_vis=1) > [@](#): > > We decline to adopt the standard established in Mimms by the United States Supreme Court. We instead hold that, under article I, section 7 of the Hawaii Constitution, a police officer must have at least a reasonable basis of specific articulable facts to believe a crime has been committed to order a driver out of a car after a traffic stop. , and I think Washington State, but I’m not sure about that one. It does in fact depend on state laws. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/318 "2015-07-23T05:03:26Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > No. It happened when she refused to get out of her car when lawfully ordered. Hell, it may not have even happened then. The cop may well have still let her go with a warning after giving her a little shit. But no, in the video I watched, **she escalates pretty much every chance she gets**. So Miss Bland forced the officer to open her door? She made him threaten to tase her? Miss Bland initiated the conversation? Miss Bland perhaps said something offensive? What exactly do you think Miss Bland did that escalated the situation such that the officer felt the need to use physical force to extract her from the vehicle and place her in handcuffs? Please don’t answer that refusing to get out of the car to be put in handcuffs escalated the situation such that the officer felt the need to use physical force to extract her from the vehicle and place her in handcuffs. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/319 "2015-07-23T05:05:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Please don’t answer that refusing to get out of the car to be put in handcuffs escalated the situation such that the officer felt the need to use physical force to extract her from the vehicle and place her in handcuffs. Well, okay. I won’t then. I think its been fairly established in this thread already that _failure to comply_ is grounds for arrest, and in Texas, the original reason for the stop. I’m not a lawyer, but I can read. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/320 "2015-07-23T05:08:02Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Well, okay. I won’t then. Dude, do you not see the ridiculous argument that you just implied you want to use? How can the reason he wanted to arrest be that she resisted arrest? What was he going to arrest her for in the first place? A cop can’t just say that since you aren’t arrested yet, you’ve clearly been resisting arrest and thus arrest you. Or do you think a cop can do that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=17)