# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/461 "2015-07-23T15:31:48Z")
My reading other places suggests that death by suffocation via hanging leaves distinct and different ligature marks than seen by strangulation via other methods and that it would be hard to achieve the correct markings by post-mortem hanging. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/462 "2015-07-23T15:32:44Z")
In the CNN video then showed the inside of the cell she was in. Now, when they claimed that she hung herself with the liner of a trash can, I thought that a liner from a little can wouldn’t be large enough to do…then I saw the size of the trash barrel they displayed in that tiny cell. If they take away all your possessions, what would be the purpose of having such a large trash receptacle in such a small cell? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/463 "2015-07-23T15:33:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > …an independent autopsy, it has been concluded a couple of days ago… Could you provide a source for this assertion? > [@Terr](#): > > …an independent autopsy…and they have the results. Could you provide a source for this assertion? > [@Terr](#): > > Do you wonder why? Not yet. Even if I did wonder, my wondering wouldn’t hold much meaning nor significance. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/464 "2015-07-23T15:33:59Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Someone up thread posted that this was a rumor. The family didn’t order a second autopsy. Yes, they did. > **[Independent autopsy performed in jail cell death of Sandra Bland](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/independent-autopsy-ordered-in-jail-cell-death-of-sandra-bland/)** > > Authorities say 28-year-old Sandra Bland hanged herself after being arrested for allegedly kicking an officer during a traffic stop; Family and friends question that account HEMPSTEAD, Texas - The family of a Chicago-area woman found dead in a Texas jail cell last week ordered an independent autopsy, which was completed Sunday, their lawyer told a radio station Monday. The results of that autopsy have not yet been released. Now that you know it is not a rumor, do you wonder why they are not releasing the results? Could it be they confirm the suicide? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/465 "2015-07-23T15:35:25Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > fwiw > > [http://www.dps.texas.gov/director\_staff/media\_and\_communications/2015/pr20150717.htm](http://www.dps.texas.gov/director_staff/media_and_communications/2015/pr20150717.htm) > News Release > > July 17, 2015 > Updated: DPS Statement Regarding Texas Ranger Investigation > > AUSTIN – The Department of Public Safety (DPS) values and strives to demonstrate our commitment to protecting the public through our actions based on fairness, respect and courteously serving those we contact. > > In the preliminary review of the traffic stop that occurred in Prairie View on July 10, 2015, involving Sandra Bland, we have identified **violations of the department’s procedures regarding traffic stops and the department’s courtesy policy**. > > Pending the outcome of the Texas Ranger and FBI investigation into this incident, the employee involved has been assigned administrative duties. At the conclusion of this investigation, any violations of protocols will be addressed. > > The District Attorney and DPS have also requested that the FBI conduct a forensic analysis of the videos related to this case. The video footage will be shared with the public as soon as possible. > > ### (HQ 2015-79) Doesn’t surprise me. I figured this would be their next step. Like I said, this guy will be lucky to keep his job at this point. [QUOTE=elucidator] If Officer Friendly (not his real name) is removed from service, have we any confidence he will be replaced by a better one? [/QUOTE] If they actually have “procedures regarding traffic stops and the department’s courtesy policy” and they are seen (by the other cops in the department) to be taking it seriously enough to take action based on it? Yeah, I think it’s safe to say that folks will take the policy(s) seriously in future…and, most likely after a situation like this they will be tightened up and expanded, since that usually happens after something serious like this happens. If for no other reason the bad blood something like this causes between the local public and the department. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/466 "2015-07-23T15:36:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I would think a forensic examination would pretty much settle this, but I’m no doctor or coroner so would love to see a cite that you can make a strangulation death from a choke hold look like suicide and get away with it. > [@elucidator](#): > > The knot on a rope or other such object leaves a clear and tell tale mark. A choke hold constricts from the front, and there is no such “knot” at the back. Another thing I know that I wish I did not. I posted some [info about this](http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm) a couple of pages back: > [@](#): > > **An inverted v-shaped furrow around the neck of a hanging victim is characteristic of suspension hanging deaths.** This furrow should be parchment white immediately after death, with a congested looking reddish rim. With time it will turn brown and become more prominent if the body is not cut down immediately. The furrow should encircle the neck immediately under the ligature and then move upwards toward the point of the knot. Just before the two ends of the furrow close, they should taper out where the knot pulled away from the skin. \*\*Anytime the investigator does not see this inverted v-shaped furrow, he should question whether a hanging has actually occurred. \*\*If the furrow completely encircles the neck and is not v-shaped, then the death was not due to a suspension hanging. It may have been due to strangulation. Strangulation furrows tend fully encircle the neck, unless the strangler twisted the back of the ligature to tighten it. If the ligature was twisted, then only a few inches of the furrow, usually at the back of the neck, would not show. > > It is extremely difficult to strangle oneself suicidally and homicide should be suspected. It is technically possible for someone to arrange a ligature strangulation of themselves; however, they have only 10-15 seconds to secure the ligature before they lose consciousness. If they have not properly secured it by that time, they will regain consciousness and survive. > > Non-v-shaped furrows can be produced by non-suspensions hangings, where the victim just leaned against the ligature. In that case, the furrow would only go slightly more than half-way around the neck > > \*\*Inverted v-shaped furrows can be artificially produced in a non-hanging death if the body is hung within two hours of death. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/467 "2015-07-23T15:39:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It was the only question asked by that poster, and **Terr** answered it. So yeah, in that context it’s the only issue of significance. I refer you to our foremost legal authority, herein: > [@](#): > > She’s under his custody the moment she is seized within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, which occurs when a reasonable person in her position would not have felt free to leave. > > He does not need to say the specific words, “You’re under arrest.” Apparently, the law is discreetly silent on whether a black and reasonable person might have a different sense of freedom to leave than a white reasonable person. As a white person of disreputable demeanor, I have always assumed I am under arrest whenever a policeman is directly addressing me, and remain entirely motionless and scrupulously respectful until such time as he departs. I have not had such an encounter with a Texas policeman in lo!, these many years, and Goddess Willing, will never have another. I may be stoned, but I ain’t stupid. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/468 "2015-07-23T15:39:39Z")
I don’t know if **elucidator** means his question to be taken seriously, but the answer is yes, at least if we accept the premise that most cops aren’t out to bully (which stats support). ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/469 "2015-07-23T15:40:59Z")
In a way this problem with police continues because social justice activists disparage the “few bad apples” premise so regularly and insist that it is a systemic problem, leading to sensitivity training in police forces instead of a simpler policy of firing people who are assholes. The latter policy serves almost every other conceivable industry. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/470 "2015-07-23T15:41:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, they did. > > [Independent autopsy performed in Waller County, Texas jail cell death of Sandra Bland - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/independent-autopsy-ordered-in-jail-cell-death-of-sandra-bland/) > > HEMPSTEAD, Texas - The family of a Chicago-area woman found dead in a Texas jail cell last week ordered an independent autopsy, which was completed Sunday, their lawyer told a radio station Monday. > > The results of that autopsy have not yet been released. > > Now that you know it is not a rumor, do you wonder why they are not releasing the results? Could it be they confirm the suicide? Thanks. Like I said, I’m more than willing to believe the official story. But I can’t entirely rule out there may have been an oversight or something that exacerbated her suicide. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/471 "2015-07-23T15:42:21Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > It’s almost as if the laws themselves are made to protect privilege instead of basic human rights… Do you consider it your privilege not to stop at stop signs, and to not use your turn signal while you’re driving on public roads? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/472 "2015-07-23T15:42:58Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Thanks. > > Like I said, I’m more than willing to believe the official story. But I can’t entirely rule out there may have been an oversight or something that exacerbated her suicide. The meds thing should definitely be confirmed (I’m sure the officials are or have done this, but it definitely bears investigation, and if confirmed determining if the detention folks knew about it as well and what, if any steps they took). ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/473 "2015-07-23T15:43:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Do you consider it your privilege not to stop at stop signs, and to not use your turn signal while you’re driving on public roads? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/474 "2015-07-23T15:47:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, they did. > > [Independent autopsy performed in Waller County, Texas jail cell death of Sandra Bland - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/independent-autopsy-ordered-in-jail-cell-death-of-sandra-bland/) > > HEMPSTEAD, Texas - The family of a Chicago-area woman found dead in a Texas jail cell last week ordered an independent autopsy, which was completed Sunday, their lawyer told a radio station Monday. > > The results of that autopsy have not yet been released. > > Now that you know it is not a rumor, do you wonder why they are not releasing the results? Could it be they confirm the suicide? Did you look at the forensics site I linked and quoted earlier? How could homicide be ruled out? Remember that the scene was compromised and contaminated when they cut her down and gave her CPR (or so they claim). The State has refused to release their autopsy as well. Does that mean anything? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/475 "2015-07-23T15:48:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > When he orders her to exit the car and she refuses, even after he states he’s giving her a lawful order. At that point she is resisting arrest. Can I quote you forever more on this? The likes of Cliven Bundy deserve the full weight of the government landing on them? I mean he was given legal orders right? After that he was resisting arrest. His death should be part of that just like this woman. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/476 "2015-07-23T15:50:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The meds thing should definitely be confirmed (I’m sure the officials are or have done this, but it definitely bears investigation, and if confirmed determining if the detention folks knew about it as well and what, if any steps they took). The intake report says she wasn’t currently on any meds, but was previously taking Keppra for epilepsy. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/477 "2015-07-23T15:51:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > One thing in the video that I didn’t know is that you are well within your rights to bring out your cell phone and record the entire confrontation yourself, since this is a public encounter and not a private one. I didn’t know that, though I assumed it was the case. Good to know, though. I think this is a less available option than it is made out to be. Once you are being detained, it is unlikely you’ll be given lattitude to record. Police aren’t going to let you go fishing around in your pockets, or obstruct their view with your phone camera. I’ve even seen police memos warning about cell phone guns (which exist) and certainly taser like devices exist in all manner of small objects. The rationale of officer safetey could easily cover not allowing a person to film. An audio recording from your pocket is a much more viable option, IMO. Most apps will continue to record after the phone is locked, and will pick up enough audio from your pocket. Some apps will stream/upload simultaneously the recording in the event the phone or data becomes unavailable so that’s useful too. This option is on the home screen of my phone that I always have with me. > [@cmyk](#): > > I was going to make this exact same point as well. The fallout from a wrongful arrest and incarceration can be an unholy nightmare; a strain on your life, your time, your job, your finances, etc. Many can’t afford that kind of shit. I’m going to go out on a limb that even if everything you describe here is true, it will still be preferable than resisting perceived wrongful arrest and the immediate consequences. Unless your life is on the line, resisting arrest seems like a terrible choice. > [@cmyk](#): > > He also tried to order eye-witnesses recording the debacle to leave the scene. > > Um, no. Public property, sir. To the extent that police are controlling a crime scene, or there is an officer or public safety consideration, police have the power to order people to leave an area including public property. No comment if this is one of those situations (I conjecture it is not). > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you think that simply saying an order is lawful makes it so? What I found surprising in the exchange was the annoucement by the officer that he was issuing a lawful order. I’ve actually never heard that spoken out loud by a police officer in this fashion. His reasonable belief that his order was lawful also gives him protection under the qualified immunity framework for police officers. It’s almost like when police shout “stop resisting” as the beat on a person. My understanding from research into open carry events is that during interaction with police often phrasing is critical. If there is doubt, a question of “is that a request or a lawful command?” will clarify the matter. If it’s the latter, then obey. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There are far more than two sides, if that’s the difference you want to focus on. I, for example, think she was legally obligated to follow the “exit the car” order, but think that, far more importantly, cops shouldn’t give lawful orders if they’re not necessary. In this case, no public safety goal was served by any of the cop’s conversation with her after he’d issued the warning (indeed, the warning itself really didn’t serve a public safety goal, nor did the stop itself). Whether the cop’s orders were legal, let’s set that aside for a second: he SHOULD NOT have asked her to extinguish her cigarette or to step out of the car, because doing so did not serve any purpose. I agree with this compeltely. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/478 "2015-07-23T15:55:36Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Did you look at the forensics site I linked and quoted earlier? How could homicide be ruled out? Remember that the scene was compromised and contaminated when they cut her down and gave her CPR (or so they claim). > > The State has refused to release their autopsy as well. Does that mean anything? The State has procedures on releasing official documents that may prevent them from doing so. The family, if their independent autopsy showed anything that was different from the official version, would have trumpeted this everywhere. They are not constrained by any procedures. The fact that they haven’t done so can only mean that their autopsy confirms suicide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/479 "2015-07-23T16:07:28Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb that even if everything you describe here is true, it will still be preferable than resisting perceived wrongful arrest and the immediate consequences. Unless your life is on the line, resisting arrest seems like a terrible choice. Is it possible she was, on some level, committing and act of Civil Disobedience? In that case, not following an order that she felt was or should be illegal might have made sense. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/480 "2015-07-23T16:09:54Z")
If that were the case, she should have driven further along and pulled over in a safer location. Like, Colorado. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=25)