# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/501 "2015-07-23T16:49:19Z")
> [@ywtf](#): > > Anyone else not understand how a person could hang themselves on trash can like that? I’m not seeing the mechanics in my mind. How could the noose have been secured so that it would hold the weight of her body without sliding? Never mind. I see from [here](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/20/us/sandra-bland-arrest-death-videos-maps.html?_r=0) that the noose was supposedly secured on a metal hook in the cell. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/502 "2015-07-23T16:49:49Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > That’s not true. If this is the case, it would not have involved more than a few jail employees. As few as two perhaps. You’ve got the actual killer/s. You’ve got the one who discovered the body. You’ve got the first responders. You’ve got the IT department responsible for the camera. You’ve got the other inmates in the neighboring cells who didn’t report hearing anyone being violently murdered. You’ve got the medical examiner from a neighboring county (she was jailed in Waller County; the autopsy was conducted in Harris County). You’ve got the other jail employees who didn’t notice their coworkers mysteriously being absent between 7:30 and 9:00. You’ve got the Bland family doctors who are apparently also covering up the real cause of death. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/503 "2015-07-23T16:49:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What does Grand Jury have to do with it? First there has to be a criminal indictment. Unless she was actually murdered (again, I will take anyone’s bet - $100 to winner’s favorite charity - that it will still be ruled a suicide) there will be no indictment. [This](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/23/us/sandra-bland-arrest-death/): > [@](#): > > Mathis, the Waller County district attorney, promised a thorough and exhaustive review of the case, which will be presented to a grand jury. > > “It has not been determined at this point that this was a murder. This investigation is being conducted as a murder investigation would,” Mathis said. “Whatever the ultimate determination may be, whether that’s a suicide or a homicide, that will ultimately be decided by a grand jury.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/504 "2015-07-23T16:54:33Z")
> [@camille](#): > > [This](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/23/us/sandra-bland-arrest-death/): I see. (And yes, I miswrote stuff, first the stuff has to be presented to Grand Jury, not indictment). Seems like the district attorney, understandably, is in CYA mode. If he wasn’t, and the autopsy results (as they are, apparently) were clearly indicating suicide, it wouldn’t go to Grand Jury. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/505 "2015-07-23T17:06:20Z")
Well, The officer shouldn’t have: Extended the stop past the warning tore the door open Gone into the car after her Threatened her with a weapon, Forbidden her to record Forbidden passers by from recording; And this is a legal arrest? And she was supposed to understand in the midst of this that you had to obey this person without hesitation or words. She was in fear and probably overloaded with adrenaline with Freddie Gray on her mind. She was bodily afraid. Isn’t this Cliven Bundy country? He was afraid they would take him off the govt dole and got a bunch of guns together. The Govt backed down. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/506 "2015-07-23T17:08:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Anyone else not understand how a person could hang themselves on trash can like that? I’m not seeing the mechanics in my mind. Did she hang herself on the trash can? All I have heard is that she used the liner. [QUOTE=cmyk] I was going to make this exact same point as well. The fallout from a wrongful arrest and incarceration can be an unholy nightmare; a strain on your life, your time, your job, your finances, etc. Many can’t afford that kind of shit. [/QUOTE] It might even make you kill yourself. That might be something to think about before refusing to exit the vehicle when told to do so. Of course, if the cop tells you to put out your cigarette, and there isn’t a Supreme Court ruling that says he can do that, you can [ol] [li]Put out your cigarette, get his badge number, and register your protest with the police department, your elected representatives, the local newspapers, and organize a protest march with like-minded citizens to end this egregious assault on our personal freedoms, or[/li][li]Hold your breath until you turn blue.[/li][/ol] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/507 "2015-07-23T17:28:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > One thing in the video that I didn’t know is that you are well within your rights to bring out your cell phone and record the entire confrontation yourself, since this is a public encounter and not a private one. I didn’t know that, though I assumed it was the case. Good to know, though. I did not watch the video you linked… but I thought several States made video-recording police [without their consent] a violation of law? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/508 "2015-07-23T17:36:12Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I did not watch the video you linked… but I thought several States made video-recording police [without their consent] a violation of law? State laws still vary but on the whole [the right to record police in public is being deemed legal](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/11/17/yes-you-have-a-right-to-record-the-police/) (inasmuch as every time it has gone to court the right has been uphled near as I can tell). Fortunately. That said it may well be illegal in some states because the law has not been challenged yet but the trajectory of such laws heading to the bin seems clear. Thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/509 "2015-07-23T17:42:11Z")
It should be illegal for an officer to order someone to stop recording; they can order people to back up if they are in the way and that’s it. Though I can see exceptions to protect privacy of victims. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/510 "2015-07-23T17:43:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course, if the cop tells you to put out your cigarette, and there isn’t a Supreme Court ruling… _**[Rodriguez v. United States](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/07/22/3683281/supreme-court-say-sandra-blands-arrest/)**_ held that police could not extend the length of a routine traffic stop, even for just a few minutes, absent a safety related concern or reasonable suspicion to believe that the driver may have committed an additional crime. As Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg explained in the opinion of the Court, “[t]he tolerable duration of police inquiries in the traffic-stop context is determined by the seizure’s ‘mission’ — to address the traffic violation that warranted the stop, and attend to related safety concerns.” A police stop “may ‘last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.’ Authority for the seizure thus ends when tasks tied to the traffic infraction are — or reasonably should have been — completed.” Under\* Rodriguez\*, a stop may be extended if the officer uncovers new evidence that provides reasonable suspicion that a suspect has committed some other crime, **but cigarette smoking is legal so that could not have justified extending the length of the stop.** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/511 "2015-07-23T17:49:54Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > It would have been considerate to let her know that, before he started manhandling her and tased her. > > But again, why use professional courtesy and common sense, if the obscure laws are on your side? To be very clear, I am in no way defending the proposition that the officer was professional, courteous, or sensible. He was not, to all three. I am defending the proposition that the arrest was lawful. There are plenty of lawful things the police can do that would be unprofessional, discourteous, and flout common sense. This is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/512 "2015-07-23T17:57:12Z")
> [@camille](#): > > _**[Rodriguez v. United States](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/07/22/3683281/supreme-court-say-sandra-blands-arrest/)**_ held that police could not extend the length of a routine traffic stop, even for just a few minutes, absent a safety related concern or reasonable suspicion to believe that the driver may have committed an additional crime. > > As Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg explained in the opinion of the Court, “[t]he tolerable duration of police inquiries in the traffic-stop context is determined by the seizure’s ‘mission’ — to address the traffic violation that warranted the stop, and attend to related safety concerns.” A police stop “may ‘last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.’ Authority for the seizure thus ends when tasks tied to the traffic infraction are — or reasonably should have been — completed.” > > Under\* Rodriguez\*, a stop may be extended if the officer uncovers new evidence that provides reasonable suspicion that a suspect has committed some other crime, **but cigarette smoking is legal so that could not have justified extending the length of the stop.** Yes, you have correctly summarized Rodriguez. But that does not transform her resisting arrest into a legal action, and nothing in Rodriguez says otherwise. Do you understand why this is so? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/513 "2015-07-23T17:59:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I see. (And yes, I miswrote stuff, first the stuff has to be presented to Grand Jury, not indictment). Seems like the district attorney, understandably, is in CYA mode. If he wasn’t, and the autopsy results (as they are, apparently) were clearly indicating suicide, it wouldn’t go to Grand Jury. This is true. The man who was found hanging in 2012 in that same jail didn’t result in a Grand Jury investigation. So Grand Jury meets some time in August, but I can’t find a date yet. This will probably drag out until then. I don’t think either autopsy will be fully released before that. Meanwhile, there will be leaks, protests, smear campaign of Bland, and millions of internet arguments. I wouldn’t bet against your theory, but I still don’t see how an autopsy alone can be conclusive one way or another, based on what I’ve read about the forensics. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/514 "2015-07-23T17:59:20Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Well, > The officer shouldn’t have: > Extended the stop past the warning > tore the door open > Gone into the car after her > Threatened her with a weapon, > Forbidden her to record > Forbidden passers by from recording; > And this is a legal arrest? Which of these factors do you believe transforms the arrest into an illegal one, specifically? Which of these do you believe is a legal defense against the charge of resisting arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/515 "2015-07-23T18:01:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To be very clear, I am in no way defending the proposition that the officer was professional, courteous, or sensible. He was not, to all three. > > I am defending the proposition that the arrest was lawful. And therein lies the rub. Police can do all sorts of awful things to you…things you really do not deserve…completely legally. I’d be ok with this given the role police fill if there was anything remotely approaching accountability for the police. ---
**Author:** ![climbuponahilltop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@climbuponahilltop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/climbuponahilltop)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/516 "2015-07-23T18:01:20Z")
Cops need the power to make reasonable requests in order to determine the likelihood of a crime being committed. Put out your cigarette could be a reasonable request under some circumstances. Asking questions such as where were you going, where are you coming from could be reasonable; such interaction allows the cop to determine whether or not the person may be intoxicated, fits the description of a wanted criminal, whatever. However, there’s a glaring disconnect between the power of making reasonable requests and the power to force a citizen to determine their own future by playing a messed-up game of Simon Says. Jump through these hoops, go free. Bristle or complain, get arrested. That’s nothing else but a power trip. Also, perhaps Encinia’s never had a wife or girlfriend, and his mother died at birth, and both grandmothers predeceased her, and he didn’t have any sisters, and he went mostly to all-boy parochial schools. Otherwise, he’d have to know that one good way to make a white-hot ball of rage rise up in a woman is to say the deceptively neutral phrase “You seem irritated.” That’s not a deescalation strategy. That’s straight-up ramping it up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/517 "2015-07-23T18:01:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There are far more than two sides, if that’s the difference you want to focus on. I, for example, think she was legally obligated to follow the “exit the car” order, but think that, far more importantly, cops shouldn’t give lawful orders if they’re not necessary. In this case, no public safety goal was served by any of the cop’s conversation with her after he’d issued the warning (indeed, the warning itself really didn’t serve a public safety goal, nor did the stop itself). Whether the cop’s orders were legal, let’s set that aside for a second: he SHOULD NOT have asked her to extinguish her cigarette or to step out of the car, because doing so did not serve any purpose. Excellent post. +1. Completely agree. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/518 "2015-07-23T18:08:59Z")
I don’t think it was out of line to ask her to put out the cigarette since he was leaning into the car to talk to her. Hardly justifies anything else, but can’t quite grasp the outrage that he asked her to put out the smoke. Seems in line with asking people to turn off the stereo, open the car window, etc. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/519 "2015-07-23T18:09:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, you have correctly summarized Rodriguez. > > But that does not transform her resisting arrest into a legal action, and nothing in Rodriguez says otherwise. > > Do you understand why this is so? Will it be on the test? 🙂 I didn’t think the court fully answered the question about the cause for reasonable suspicion in order to extend the stop, but I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/520 "2015-07-23T18:10:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which of these factors do you believe transforms the arrest into an illegal one, specifically? Which of these do you believe is a legal defense against the charge of resisting arrest? I’m thinking that this whole list of events is extralegal. So he should have taken a step back and gone back to his vehicle at one of them, when he got his head straight, and called for backup. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=27)