# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/861 "2015-07-25T07:08:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, we should always stand up for them and force the government to conform to it’s bargain with us. When the government encroaches on them we should fight that. I’m all for it. It’s where the battle ground is that seems to be in question, and how it should be fought. There is a time and a place to fight the government, the police, even society itself, and there are times when I think it’s right and proper to put ones life on the line to do so. Over a traffic ticket is not one of those times, IMHO. I suppose to contrast what I mean there is the difference between Rosa Parks and Claudette Colvin. Both women were hands down and unequivocally in the right. It makes me sad that such things have happened, and I think that what they did was heroic and that this country needed this, as well as many other examples. But Rosa Parks did what she did in such a way as to set off an earth quake in this country because of HOW she did what she did, and how she fought the battle, while most people are probably Googling who Claudette Colvin is at this point. Which is sad, but it shows the difference between when and how to fight to make it meaningful, at least that’s the first example that came into my mind when you asked your questions. > ( How exactly do you think Claudette Colvin handled the situation wrong? The only difference I see if that she was politically unpalatable to the general public because she was female and therefore was able to get pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/862 "2015-07-25T08:05:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > When the Nazi come into your house to drag you and your family away to the death camps? Yeah, that would be the time to fight the power. No, by that time it would be too late. Is that the bar for the amount of evidence you would need before you take something seriously? > [@](#): > > And I’m telling you that us who have to live in the real world as it actually exists today are better served taking the freaking ticket and fighting it in traffic court… This isn’t the first time this has been said in this thread. _She wasn’t fighting the ticket._ She accepted getting the ticket without a fight. She was about to sign the ticket when the cop decided to take it further. This wasn’t about “failure to signal”, she was arrested for “failure to grovel”. > [@grude](#): > > How exactly do you think Claudette Colvin handled the situation wrong? The only difference I see if that she was politically unpalatable to the general public because she was female and therefore was able to get pregnant. Well, she actually did get pregnant. And she didn’t have the “good hair”. Public perception is still a factor today. Look at the concerted effort put into the smear campaigns for the victims of the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/863 "2015-07-25T08:49:36Z")
I’ve been pulled over enough in TX that an accurate count would be hard to judge. It’s more than a hundred, possibly hundreds. I have a lead foot, and you can be profiled for other reasons than race. In my experience and from my understanding of the law, the stop and arrest in this case were entirely legal. It’s a sad situation, but unless evidence comes to light that convincingly contradicts the current coroner’s report, I don’t think much will come of this other than the officer being reprimanded. You have to follow the lawful orders of a police officer in Texas [when operating a vehicle](http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/TN/7/C/542/E/542.501), and my understanding is that this extends to traffic stops. I was told this in the driver’s ed that TX used to require for persons under 18, and in defensive driving classes since then. I was also told that the only traffic offense that isn’t arrest-able is speeding (and a chatty trooper once told me it’s no problem to turn speeding into arrest-able reckless driving if they just “want to get you off the road for awhile”). So, I don’t see where any discussion of the arrest is going to go anywhere. Yep, he is a dick officer, but I’ve met far worse (with a bad attitude of my own, no less) and left without even a warning on two occasions because I complied with the law, and the stop was honestly bogus. Ms. Bland did not, and got arrested. I fully expect that if I didn’t comply with the orders given to me on any one of my stops, I would have been arrested (and sometimes I’ve been arrested anyway). It’s the law here. Should the law regarding what’s an arrest-able violation be changed? Almost certainly, it gives police in Texas too much latitude. Should the laws regarding what constitutes a “legal order” be changed? I don’t think so. Telling someone to get out of the car isn’t a rare occurrence in a traffic stop. I’ve been told to: get out of the car, get back in the car when I got out without being asked, drive to a safer location to be pulled over, extinguish my cigarette\*, pick up that cigarette butt (or I’ll be charged with littering, too), and “Stand there, I don’t think there are any ants there.” when there certainly were ants there (only got a written warning that time, despite being horribly guilty). I honestly am surprised that some states have a law preventing the officer from asking the person to leave the car. Even in Texas, it doesn’t indicate that you’re going to be arrested (there are no guarantees, I’ve even had the cuffs taken off and been sent on my way). Most of the time it usually indicates that they don’t feel comfortable standing in the space available between car and the roadway. Sometimes it’s been so that the cop can “discuss” the citation with me at length. Even then, I don’t think it’s a terrible violation of my rights, it’s part of the stop. So, anyone stating that the logic of the arrest is circular is mistaken. She broke the law and was in danger of arrest when she committed any moving violation besides speeding. When she refused to get out of the car (which seems to be within the powers of an officer when performing a stop), she committed an offense that IME, would probably result in her being arrested if she didn’t comply very soon after the next order. You don’t have to like it, you can work to change it, but it is presently the law in Texas. It’s the law in other states too, so this is a particularly bad point to decide to turn the roadside into a courthouse over. If she was alive today, she could probably get the officer reprimanded for the arrest, since at the very least he screwed the stop up with regard to standards of civility. I doubt she would have been able to get any criminal or civil penalties against him. \*I have always assumed that extinguishing the cigarette was part of a stop because it could cover the smell of weed, I know that is often why I lit it. I have no idea whether it’s legal for a cop to order someone to put it out on those grounds; and Ms. Bland wasn’t ordered to put hers out, she was asked. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/864 "2015-07-25T10:59:07Z")
Driving in Michigan for 25 years, I’ve been pulled over for everything from a brake light out to speeding to accidents. Never once have I been asked to step out of my vehicle. Even when the officer was questioning my sobriety (which I was) and smelled weed in my car (which there wasn’t). To be asked to step out for not signaling is just completely alien to me. And it was probably the case for her, being from Illinois. And the cop probably used it against her, when he could’ve just told her. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/865 "2015-07-25T12:08:31Z")
Well, as the truth comes out, we find out she was no angel. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/866 "2015-07-25T12:20:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, as the truth comes out, we find out she was no angel. It shouldn’t matter, even if she was a baby raper it doesn’t change whether the cop followed policy or common sense or not. I really hate this ideological tug of war that always happens in such cases, if time traveling Hitler is subject to police abuse it doesn’t change anything about the real issue. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/867 "2015-07-25T12:25:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > But Rosa Parks did what she did in such a way as to set off an earth quake in this country because of HOW she did what she did, and how she fought the battle, while most people are probably Googling who Claudette Colvin is at this point. Which is sad, but it shows the difference between when and how to fight to make it meaningful, at least that’s the first example that came into my mind when you asked your questions. Please note that Rosa Parks was an activist who deliberately set out to provoke the establishment by refusing to give up her seat. This was a premediated act on her part, and she went into with a premediated mindset. Her performance should not and does not represent a benchmark for how black people she behave when they are being jerked around by cops, because that is an unreasonable standard. It’s like expecting people to not wince or moan when someone is hitting them in the face, and then, when they do show pain, ignoring them because “that’s not how Rosa Parks did it.” Rosa Parks wasn’t your typical average joe just trying to go home and eat their meatloaf with ketchup on it. You know who inspires people like Rosa Park to get out there and fight the system? People like Sandra Bland. You can’t mobilize activists to pay attention to something if no one ever steps out of line and pays the price for it. If everyone is meek and compliant, all you get is unchallenged oppression. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/868 "2015-07-25T12:31:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > But Rosa Parks did what she did in such a way as to set off an earth quake in this country because of HOW she did what she did, and how she fought the battle, while most people are probably Googling who Claudette Colvin is at this point. Which is sad, but it shows the difference between when and how to fight to make it meaningful, at least that’s the first example that came into my mind when you asked your questions. I don’t see any difference between what both did. If you think that what Parks did was admirable, you should think the same about Colvin. It seems that you’re stating that if your action doesn’t end up with a resounding success, then you should abstain. Since nobody can know in advance whether or not their action will be the starting point of a major social change (and it’s extremely unlikely it will), then everybody should abstain. And Parks should have abstained too if she had any sense and just have given her seat. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/869 "2015-07-25T13:03:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For starters: > Quote: > An employee of the Department of Public Safety shall be courteous to the public and to other employees. An employee shall be tactful in the performance of duties, shall control behavior, and shall exercise the utmost patience and discretion. An employee shall not engage in argumentative discussions even in the face of extreme provocation. Employees shall not express any prejudice concerning another’s creed, politics, lifestyle or similar personal characteristics. > > In the performance of duties, an employee shall not use harsh, coarse, profane, or offensively suggestive language or gestures. An employee will not deliberately intimidate, degrade, undermine or humiliate another employee. An employee will not let personal feelings interfere with working relationships. > (my emphasis in bold) > > (my emphasis in bold) Just WOW so this cop decided to pull a taser, threaten the bejesus out of Sandra who ultimately winds up dead. At the very least against protocol…and it is just escalation… there’s no racist intent? Bullshit. Contrast his behaviour to the Georgia police when a Confederate Sovereign decided to pull a loaded rifle on them… the fuckin guy does not die! lives to tell the story and get support. It seems the deal is protocol be damned if you are the wrong color. > **[‘Sovereign citizen’ arrested after twice trying to grab one of six loaded...](https://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/sovereign-citizen-arrested-after-twice-trying-to-grab-one-of-six-loaded-guns-in-his-confederate-flag-car/)** > > Sheriff's deputies arrested a Georgia "sovereign citizen" who twice attempted to pull one of the half-dozen guns he had within reach inside his car decorated with a hand-painted Confederate flag.A Towns County sheriff's deputy and an agent from the... ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/870 "2015-07-25T13:14:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, as the truth comes out, we find out she was no angel. This has nothing to do with the Traffic violation or the treatment of this woman. A Georgia Confederate Soverignist, also pulled over for a traffic violation who drew a weapon on the police was given more respect. Was he an angel…or just a lily white one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/871 "2015-07-25T13:22:43Z")
My comment was intended to be sarcastic, in line with previous “revelations” about deceased scofflaws and scoundrels. Could have used a “smilie”, I suppose. Could have, won’t, but could have. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/872 "2015-07-25T13:25:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My comment was intended to be sarcastic, in line with previous “revelations” about deceased scofflaws and scoundrels. Could have used a “smilie”, I suppose. Could have, won’t, but could have. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/873 "2015-07-25T13:34:54Z")
If Rosa Parks had tried to do what she did today, the cop would have tasered her. People would have used the fact that she was tasered as proof that she was a dangerous criminal. Because, after all, cops don’t taser innocent middle-aged ladies. They only taser thugs. Ergo, Rosa Parks was a thug. > [@XT](#): > > Well, we should always stand up for them and force the government to conform to it’s bargain with us. When the government encroaches on them we should fight that. I’m all for it. It’s where the battle ground is that seems to be in question, and how it should be fought. There is a time and a place to fight the government, the police, even society itself, and there are times when I think it’s right and proper to put ones life on the line to do so. Over a traffic ticket is not one of those times, IMHO. I suppose to contrast what I mean there is the difference between Rosa Parks and Claudette Colvin. Both women were hands down and unequivocally in the right. It makes me sad that such things have happened, and I think that what they did was heroic and that this country needed this, as well as many other examples. But Rosa Parks did what she did in such a way as to set off an earth quake in this country because of HOW she did what she did, and how she fought the battle, while most people are probably Googling who Claudette Colvin is at this point. Which is sad, but it shows the difference between when and how to fight to make it meaningful, at least that’s the first example that came into my mind when you asked your questions. All of this boggles my mind. 1. Rosa Parks didn’t do anything special that Claudette Colvin didn’t do. The only difference was that Rosa Parks had NAACP backing. She had powerful friends…that is the only difference. 2. Rosa Parks got herself thrown in jail over a damn bus seat. A bus seat is no less trivial than a traffic ticket. 3. Rosa Parks garnered attention because she was the “perfect victim”. She was light-skinned, middle-class, church-going. She wasn’t no pregnant hussy like that Colvin gal. She was a respectable lady. But most people are not perfect. When thrust into situations like the one Bland found herself in, we don’t have time to rid our closets of all the skeletons that could come back to sully our character by the so-called impartial media. If Rosa Parks had broken the law unintentionally, as Bland had, there’s no telling how she could have sabotaged herself and the movement when threatened with arrest. Like–gasp!–actually showing some anger and using profanity. That’s what human beings do when the shit hits the fan (especially when their constitutional rights are involved). A person shouldn’t have to have super-human levels of stoicism to garner sympathy from the public. 1. You admitted upthread that a “schlub” like yourself wouldn’t have much success in traffic court. And you seem to be a fairly well-educated, well-to-do guy. What chance do you think Sandra Bland had at defending herself in a rural Texas court? She was just about to start a new job–so it’s not like she had a lot of time off for dealing with this shit. She likely did not have a lot of money either. So the likelihood of her enacting policy changes from the courtroom is extremely slim . If the system is stacked against guys like you, imagine how it must be for people like Bland. Which is why I doubt the police officer would have tried yanking a white guy out of his car like that. Especially an older white guy wearing a suit, driving a nice car. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/874 "2015-07-25T13:40:19Z")
Such a person might well be expected to posses the civil rights enhancement commonly referred to as “money”. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/875 "2015-07-25T14:05:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My comment was intended to be sarcastic, in line with previous “revelations” about deceased scofflaws and scoundrels. Could have used a “smilie”, I suppose. Could have, won’t, but could have. Your sarcasm was way too close to real sentiment I have seen expressed over this case, for some this was an example of a delusional out of line mental patient whose bullshit has cost a poor man his career. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/876 "2015-07-25T14:18:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If Rosa Parks had tried to do what she did today, the cop would have tasered her. People would have used the fact that she was tasered as proof that she was a dangerous criminal. Because, after all, cops don’t taser innocent middle-aged ladies. They only taser thugs. Ergo, Rosa Parks was a thug. People? That’s a pretty broad term. People, as in “someone I can find somewhere out of a population of 300 million” -or- People, as in people who are posting in this thread. If the former, I’d say so what? You can find “people” of just about any stripe you would desire in a population of 300M. If the latter, then who specifically is that? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/877 "2015-07-25T14:22:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People? That’s a pretty broad term. > > People, as in “someone I can find somewhere out of a population of 300 million” > > -or- > > People, as in people who are posting in this thread. > > If the former, I’d say so what? You can find “people” of just about any stripe you would desire in a population of 300M. If the latter, then who specifically is that? The same people would call MLK a “race-baiter” if he were alive today, but worship him as a saint now that he’s dead. A shitload of people. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/878 "2015-07-25T14:43:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Really. > > The stop is not completed until the warrant is signed. Other posters have explained this upthread, with citations, and more clearly than I have. Ok , so the SCOTUS decision can be sidestepped by simply preventing the driver from signing? That makes it pretty toothless. I doubt your argument would pass muster in court. It’s clearly against the intent of the ruling. > [@grude](#): > > It shouldn’t matter, even if she was a baby raper it doesn’t change whether the cop followed policy or common sense or not. > > I really hate this ideological tug of war that always happens in such cases, if time traveling Hitler is subject to police abuse it doesn’t change anything about the real issue. ---
**Author:** ![climbuponahilltop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@climbuponahilltop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/climbuponahilltop)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/879 "2015-07-25T14:50:35Z")
Getting arrested needs to be based on what you do, not how likeable a cop finds you, and not how good you make a cop feel about himself. Sandra Bland would not have been arrested if she’d played the game, sat up straight, put on her concerned citizen face, said yessir nosir, and fluttered her eyelashes a bit. It’s simple. But maybe it’s not that simple. Let’s face it: she was in a bad enough mental state to kill herself on Monday, which indicates she may have been in a bad enough mental state to not be able to play the game on Friday. Not a threat to society by any means, just not able to play the game. And it’s outrageous that our freedom depends not on following the law but on our ability to swallow one’s pride, ignore the injustice of being tailgated into making a technically illegal traffic move, and flutter one’s eyelashes. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/880 "2015-07-25T14:52:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s helpful to draw a distinction between the observation that the trooper SHOULD have done something differently, and the conclusion that the trooper acted illegally. > > So if he felt threatened, he should indeed have told her why he was getting her out of the car. > > But he isn’t legally obligated to do so and his failure to do so doesn’t transform the arrest into an illegal one. > > I persist in making this distinction because it’s clear to me that some participants don’t yet understand that. The trooper’s conduct was horrible, and a violation of his department policy. It wasn’t unconstitutional. I say it WAS unconstitutional it violated the 4th amendment right of protection against unlawful search and seizure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=45)