# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1341 "2015-07-28T16:38:58Z")
If I am not mistaken being a dick to a Judge in a court room has real world consequences pretty darn quick. I don’t see why a cop shouldn’t get the same treatment. And given the circumstances, I’d argue the cop deserves it MORE than the judge does. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1342 "2015-07-28T16:39:02Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Can you point out what indicates that Encinia had Bland get out of the car because of his concern about standing near the traffic? From Encinia’s statement on the phone to his supervisor: “I’m at the driver’s side, I need to get her out of the car and over to the side of the car, you know, on the sidewalk, because I don’t want to be in the middle of the road while we’re arguing – or whatever, not arguing, I’m trying to tell her what she’s doing but she’s arguing with me.” ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1343 "2015-07-28T16:40:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t. > > Yep, they can’t arrest someone in retaliation. But if people are gonna be dicks, they should just arrest them straight away and forget about tickets and warnings. > > Obviously, I’m not actually advocating that. But neither do I accept holding the cops to a higher moral standard than other people. Cops should be reasonably polite and respectful - but so should everyone else. No way. What PatriotX said: > [@PatriotX](#): > > Being an LEO is a profession. > Police have powers and authority which regular people do not have. > Consequently, LEOs have obligations which regular people do not have esp when it comes to exercising that authority and those powers. > > It makes no sense to hold the general public to the same behavioral standards as police. You can’t expect the general public to always be upbeat, polite and courteous. They aren’t the professional in that situation. It _makes sense_ for everyone to act respectful and courteous, but it’s a cop’s _job_ to de-escalate. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1344 "2015-07-28T16:45:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fire the cop. DPS can do that based on his violation of their internal policy. > > No changes are needed, in other words, beyond a commitment to enforcing existing policy. I would support a change in the law so that Mimms is mooted. Make it so that the law mirrors other states like Vermont where a reasonable suspicion is necessary to force exit from a vehicle. I would support a change in the law so that a reason for arrest must be articulated similar to the law in CA, with various caveats for circumstances that don’t permit the articulation. I would change the law to make certain minor traffic violations not arrestable offenses. I think the way the law functions in the above 3 areas cause more harm than good in the current environment and we’d be better served if they were eliminated as I suggest. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1345 "2015-07-28T16:54:18Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > If I am not mistaken being a dick to a Judge in a court room has real world consequences pretty darn quick. > > I don’t see why a cop shouldn’t get the same treatment. And given the circumstances, I’d argue the cop deserves it MORE than the judge does. I’d argue that way lies fascism. At least the court room is a very controlled and ordered environment for legitimate reasons, and contempt disrupts that control and order and wastes everyone’s time. Contempt of court can be for a variety of reasons, not limited to the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1346 "2015-07-28T16:55:56Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’d argue that way lies fascism. If “being polite and civil to authority figures” is the definition of fascism, then call me Mussolini. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1347 "2015-07-28T16:59:07Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Dood. Did you bother to read what that was in response to? You said you wanted to “just wait”. I questioned whether you wanted to actually “just wait” or intended to not “just wait” and would just keep talking about the subject. This isn’t rocket surgery. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1348 "2015-07-28T16:59:49Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’d argue that way lies fascism. > > At least the court room is a very controlled and ordered environment for legitimate reasons, and contempt disrupts that control and order and wastes everyone’s time. Contempt of court can be for a variety of reasons, not limited to the judge. A facist system isn’t going to exist even if cop’s have the power of God. A facists system will be facists (or what ever bad thing you want to worry about) when the laws and judges and lawyers are bad. So, a courtroom is controlled. I act like a dick towards the judge or lawyers. What’s the worst that happens? Somebody get’s their ego bruised? A traffic stop is very uncontrolled. You act like a dick towards a cop and he has heightened suspicion that things could go south. So, now he is tense. How the fuck does that help anybody? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1349 "2015-07-28T17:05:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If “being polite and civil to authority figures” is the definition of fascism, then call me Mussolini. Think about the room for abuse by a cop, who has a taser, pepper spray, a baton and a firearm. You’re usually not in a controlled environment, s/he’s acting under their own discretion, and you say the wrong thing to the wrong kinda cop, and shit hits the fan. No fucking way, Mussolini. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1350 "2015-07-28T17:11:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If “being polite and civil to authority figures” is the definition of fascism, then call me Mussolini. Now that was funny. And I’m saying it just because I have to dear leader 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1351 "2015-07-28T17:18:52Z")
“Do you know why I pulled you over?” “Um, no officer.” “Did you just eye-roll me?!” “What?” “You heard what I said. Step out of the car.” “I didn’t eye-roll you, officer. My contact lens is—” “That’s a lawful order… get out of the car!” “But I didn’t—” “Now! Out of the car!” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1352 "2015-07-28T17:21:25Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > “Do you know why I pulled you over?” > > “Um, no officer.” > > “Did you just eye-roll me?!” > > “What?” > > “You heard what I said. Step out of the car.” > > “I didn’t eye-roll you, officer. My contact lens is—” > > “That’s a lawful order… get out of the car!” > > “But I didn’t—” > > “Now! Out of the car!” > > etc. Here is the “etc.”. You step out of the car. You follow his instructions on where to go and where to stand. He gives you a lecture. You listen and nod. He gives you a ticket or just lets you go. End of story. What a horrible, horrible story, isn’t it? First world problems… ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1353 "2015-07-28T17:24:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here is the “etc.”. You step out of the car. You follow his instructions on where to go and where to stand. He gives you a lecture. You listen and nod. He gives you a ticket or just lets you go. End of story. > > What a horrible, horrible story, isn’t it? > > First world problems… Or you get a ticket, or a fine, or beaten, or arrested, or jail-time. For a mis-perceived eye-roll. You really think all cops are bastions of fairness and good judgement? There’s no such thing as bad or corrupt cops? And you want to give them _that_ sort of power? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1354 "2015-07-28T17:26:22Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Or you get a ticket, or a fine, or arrested, or jail-time. For a mis-perceived eye-roll. What would you get arrested for, exactly? You know they are required to tell you what crime you committed at arraignment. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1355 "2015-07-28T17:28:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How ambiguous is “I’m giving you a lawful order.”? This situation was built on ambiguous misdirective statements, where he took each perfectly human response to be an “escalation.” The ambiguous statement was his suggestion that she “could” step out of the car in response to not wanting to put out her cigarette. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1356 "2015-07-28T17:28:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What would you get arrested for, exactly? You know they are required to tell you what crime you committed at arraignment. Contempt. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1357 "2015-07-28T17:58:27Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You said you wanted to “just wait”. I questioned whether you wanted to actually “just wait” or intended to not “just wait” and would just keep talking about the subject. This isn’t rocket surgery. Apparently it is for you. Here’s the actual thread of discussion. Try to read for comprehension… > [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > The family has a great attorney who will not divulge anything until he absolutely has to. He has some information many folks will not be happy to hear when all is laid out. > [@Terr](#): > > Would you like to make a small bet? > [@cmyk](#): > > The sad thing? This is all a fucking game to you. > [@Terr](#): > > I like to see if people can put their money where their mouths are. > [@cmyk](#): > > How 'bout we just wait and see how this all shakes out in a court of law, as intended. > > We aren’t racing horses here. Someone died. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1358 "2015-07-28T18:05:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I would support a change in the law so that Mimms is mooted. Make it so that the law mirrors other states like Vermont where a reasonable suspicion is necessary to force exit from a vehicle. > > I would support a change in the law so that a reason for arrest must be articulated similar to the law in CA, with various caveats for circumstances that don’t permit the articulation. > > I would change the law to make certain minor traffic violations not arrestable offenses. > > I think the way the law functions in the above 3 areas cause more harm than good in the current environment and we’d be better served if they were eliminated as I suggest. While I think **Bricker** ’s response is appropriate for this incident, I could easily get behind these reforms, but I’ll have to investigate the specifics of the CA law. > [@cmyk](#): > > Think about the room for abuse by a cop, who has a taser, pepper spray, a baton and a firearm. You’re usually not in a controlled environment, s/he’s acting under their own discretion, and you say the wrong thing to the wrong kinda cop, and shit hits the fan. > > No fucking way, Mussolini. Well, as I said up-thread, I can’t think of any way to make it safe to be a dick to an officer. I’ve done it and walked away (and I had more than the known offense at risk), but under no circumstances would I recommend it to someone else. The fact is: as long as they have the power to arrest you, the power to inflict pain on you to comply if you resist, and potentially can kill you if you actually fight back; the potential risks for doing so and then reacting violently when they bait you into an arrest-able offense is going to include death. I can’t honestly think of a situation that can’t be gamed within the law to provoke someone who’s being honestly belligerent to an officer. In the situation described above, I was stupid and young, but not emotionally belligerent. I was also willing to risk a trip to jail and my girlfriend being forbidden from seeing me in order to prove a point. If I didn’t convince the officer, he could have written a ticket, and I would have taken it. This being Pantego, TX (well known speed trap completely surrounded by Arlington), if he’d taken me to jail for it: I’d have gone quietly, and he would probably have laughed about it with his buddies. It was an obscure version of a seatbelt violation (involving the years that cars recived shoulder belts) that he had pulled me over on, and I was a state vehicle inspector. I enjoyed the idea that I knew more on the subject than he did, and was a dick about it. If I was actually angry, I can easily imagine that I could have been baited into being foolish; but I knew I was pulled over for a misinterpretation of the law, and I wasn’t going to do anything to make it worse than that. I was either going to make him feel silly on the side of the road, or in a court later. It didn’t matter much to me. Now, if I had given him a reason to search the car: we would have gone to the second round, where the stakes get higher! I was sweating that, but it didn’t happen. OTOH, even though I basically did the same as my sister did in the following (in the eyes of the law, the eyes of the law!), even within the police’s powers to arrest you: it’s not that easy to arrest someone. When my sister was in the absolute pit of her meth habit, she was very clever in making my mom’s life hell on Christmas eve. Cops were called, but my sister’s about as clever as I am, and has had much more experience with the legal system than I (the cops who arrived knew her first name). So, after parrying with the cops for an hour and forty-five minutes, they eventually left with the statement of “If I have to come out here again, I’ll _find_ a reason to arrest you.” After a few more hours of making my mother’s life sadness, she convinced my sister to leave. So, I think that they should probably have most of the powers they have now. There’s obviously tweaking to be done, but there’s no way you’re going to be able to legislate the perfect officer. When it doesn’t work now, it can fail in both directions. When an officer violates it an harms the public, there should be some discretion allowed to the department before it crosses in to legal penalties for the officer. In other words, it’s all in the details. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1359 "2015-07-28T18:39:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here is the “etc.”. You step out of the car. You follow his instructions on where to go and where to stand. He gives you a lecture. You listen and nod. He gives you a ticket or just lets you go. End of story. I’d say that’s not enough. These unruly and uppity “citizens” also need a thorough spanking every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1360 "2015-07-28T18:42:48Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Contempt. Cite for the relevant law? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=69)