# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1481 "2015-07-29T20:05:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Bricker** can I ask you opinion of this view that wherever X is a defendant in a trial, whatever X says should be given all the benefit of the doubt in virtue of X being the defendant? No, that’s not how any trial should work. But… In a criminal trial, the defendant’s entire case should be given the benefit of the doubt – if there is any reasonable doubt to be had, in other words, the accused must be acquitted. In a civil trial, the defendant is entitled to the barest benefit – his opponent, the plaintiff, must only prove his claim by preponderance of the evidence. In other contexts, like hearing on admissibility, still other burdens apply. So it’s necessary to define exactly what sort of context we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1482 "2015-07-29T20:08:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You can ask him that, but it would be nothing to do with what I actually said. The jury don’t have to believe him, but they have to be sure, beyond reasonable doubt, that no explanation for his behaviour other than the illegal one he’s been accused of is possible. > > So, if he claims to have wanted her to leave the car because he was in fear of injury from his cigarette, the jury can’t conclude from their belief that he was lying that any specific other reason was the case - they need actual proof for that. Whoa. Which jury, in what case? A jury hearing a charge against Bland for resisting arrest (or, less morbidly, an accused motorist similarly situated to Bland’s traffic stop)? A jury hearing some sort of criminal charge against the officer? A jury hearing some sort of civil complaint against the officer? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1483 "2015-07-29T23:30:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s true, of course this entire line is more of a philosophical hijack than a meaningful discussion of the facts and standards applicable to a traffic stop. I probably should have steered it to another thread if I were interested in a serious discussion of why police officers’ concern about second-hand smoke is not in the same category as a waiters’. > [@Bricker](#): > > See previous post. It wasn’t an argument as much as a philosophical exploration of the view of safety concerns appropriate to waiters as opposed to police officers. Okay, thanks. I thought you might be trying to establish a legal defense, and was wondering how it would work. I agree it is an interesting question. But I also agree that the safety concern would be considered reasonable (they give the police a wide berth for safety issues). End of hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1484 "2015-07-30T01:39:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Whoa. > > Which jury, in what case? > > A jury hearing a charge against Bland for resisting arrest (or, less morbidly, an accused motorist similarly situated to Bland’s traffic stop)? A jury hearing some sort of criminal charge against the officer? A jury hearing some sort of civil complaint against the officer? I was talking about the potential criminal charge against the officer. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1485 "2015-07-30T02:11:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Although there is no law requiring her to extinguish her cigarette, there is a law requiring her to step out of the vehicle when ordered to do so and told that she’s under arrest. Was she told she’s under arrest when asked to step out of the vehicle? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1486 "2015-07-30T02:41:14Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Was she told she’s under arrest when asked to step out of the vehicle? Yes. More specifically, the first “Step out,” did not include that information. Seconds later, however, he advised her she was under arrest and reiterated the command. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1487 "2015-07-30T02:48:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. > > More specifically, the first “Step out,” did not include that information. Seconds later, however, he advised her she was under arrest and reiterated the command. Was that before or after she kicked him so hard he got scratches on his hand? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1488 "2015-07-30T03:06:25Z")
For those (camille?) who keep wondering if the presence of a garbage can in the cell was something maliciously weird and exceptional: > **[In Texas Jails, Hanging Most Common Method of Inmate Suicide](https://www.texastribune.org/2015/07/24/hanging-most-common-suicide-method-texas-jails/)** > > Of the 501 inmate deaths that have occurred in county jails since 2009, nearly a third of them were by suicide. Most of those suicides were by hanging, with inmates using objects jailers provided for them as ligatures. But of the 501 inmate deaths that have occurred in county jails since 2009, nearly a third of them — 140 — were by suicide. And most of those suicides were by hanging, with inmates using objects available to them as ligatures: bed linens, clothing, telephone cords and **trash bags**. … Bland’s death has renewed questions about why trash bags are available in county jail cells at all. While trash can liners are often available in county lockups, they are scarce in state prisons. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1489 "2015-07-30T03:36:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > For those (camille?) who keep wondering if the presence of a garbage can in the cell was something maliciously weird and exceptional: > > [In Texas Jails, Hanging Most Common Suicide Method | The Texas Tribune](https://www.texastribune.org/2015/07/24/hanging-most-common-suicide-method-texas-jails/) > > But of the 501 inmate deaths that have occurred in county jails since 2009, nearly a third of them — 140 — were by suicide. > > And most of those suicides were by hanging, with inmates using objects available to them as ligatures: bed linens, clothing, telephone cords and **trash bags**. > … > Bland’s death has renewed questions about why trash bags are available in county jail cells at all. While trash can liners are often available in county lockups, they are scarce in state prisons. I never said that. Do you think of me as a conspiracy theorist? ☹ \*\* In fact, I said the lack of garbage bags wouldn’t prevent a suicide, because of the other items mentioned in your cite. I did question the wisdom of having a large unbolted garbage _pail_ in a cell, because it could be thrown at a guard if the detainee is agitated. Not malicious, or a conspiracy. Just stupidity. BTW, since you mentioned the prevalence of suicides in jail, here’s a recent news article: [\*\*At Least 5 Black Women Found Dead in Jail Since Mid-July \*\*](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/07/28/3685435/fourth-black-woman-found-dead-jail-cell-since-mid-july/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1490 "2015-07-30T03:43:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. > > More specifically, the first “Step out,” did not include that information. Seconds later, however, he advised her she was under arrest and reiterated the command. Are you counting as the first “Step out” the phrase “Well you can step on out now”? The authoritative imperative command is phrased as permission? This is the phrase the conveys legal detention and seizure of the person, the arrested one. “OK, Rocky, you can lie down on the pavement with your hands clasped over your head. Feel free to bleed…” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1491 "2015-07-30T03:52:03Z")
> [@camille](#): > > [\*\*At Least 5 Black Women Found Dead in Jail Since Mid-July > \*\*](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/07/28/3685435/fourth-black-woman-found-dead-jail-cell-since-mid-july/) Ok. How many white women? Or white men? You know, to put it in perspective. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1492 "2015-07-30T04:38:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok. How many white women? Or white men? You know, to put it in perspective. I didn’t write the article. I agree it would be good to know the answer to your question as well. But for the record, it would be just as wrong if the jails not following protocol failed to keep\* any\* detainees safe and alive, regardless of race. We already know that the media latches on to the latest outrage to highlight certain aspects of it, but a problem like this goes beyond race or sex. It was your question, so maybe you can employ your google-foo to let us know? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1493 "2015-07-30T04:46:59Z")
> [@camille](#): > > I didn’t write the article. I agree it would be good to know the answer to your question as well. > > But for the record, it would be just as wrong if the jails not following protocol failed to keep\* any\* detainees safe and alive, regardless of race. We already know that the media latches on to the latest outrage to highlight certain aspects of it, but a problem like this goes beyond race or sex. > > It was your question, so maybe you can employ your google-foo to let us know? Well, that article that I gave you gives stats for Texas county jails: Since Sept. 1, 2009, there have been 140 suicides in Texas county jails, most by hanging. White: 80 male, 12 female Hispanic: 30 male, 1 female Black: 16 male, 1 female Do you see something in those stats that would make you suspicious of some “special” treatment of blacks in jails? I don’t. That **thinkprogress** article you cited is deliberately trying, by omission, to create an impression of some kind of open season on black women. Complete crap. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1494 "2015-07-30T05:09:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, that article that I gave you gives stats for Texas county jails: > > Since Sept. 1, 2009, there have been 140 suicides in Texas county jails, most by hanging. > > White: 80 male, 12 female > Hispanic: 30 male, 1 female > Black: 16 male, 1 female > > Do you see something in those stats that would make you suspicious of some “special” treatment of blacks in jails? I don’t. > > That **thinkprogress** article you cited is deliberately trying, by omission, to create an impression of some kind of open season on black women. Complete crap. I didn’t post it with that intention; I just copied the headline for the link. As I said, the media has its own agenda. Doesn’t mean the larger issue isn’t valid. Do you really believe I wouldn’t care if a white person died in the same way as Sandra Bland, or think that it would be any less a tragedy? ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1495 "2015-07-30T05:23:01Z")
The truth will never be known because the camera didn’t pick up crucial pieces of the story. We don’t know if the cop was kicked, we only heard a struggle off camera. We don’t know if the cigarette had an ashtray. We don’t know anything about Sandra’s time in her jail cell other than witnesses hearing her. What we have learned today from the Sam Dubose murder is that a cop lied through his teeth and another cop corroborated his lies. However, We can draw the similarities in the two situations. In both cases The family did not believe the cop story because of what they knew about their loved one. In both cases the deceased had many traffic violations and were not models of society, and yet the Dubose family has the comfort of a murder charge due to video evidence, rather than those eager to believe the lies and smears to the dead man’s integrity. Given the mistrust of the legal system, Video evidence is the only thing that will save lives . The law has failed. Video evidence is the only thing that can exonerate or find guilty those in question. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1496 "2015-07-30T05:24:25Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Do you really believe I wouldn’t care if a white person died in the same way as Sandra Bland, or think that it would be any less a tragedy? How would you care if it isn’t reported? [http://static.nicic.gov/Library/024308.pdf](http://static.nicic.gov/Library/024308.pdf) 696 suicides in jails in 2005-2006. One a day. Is every one of them reported as a huge tragedy in national media, or even a significant percentage? A better question - _should_ each one be reported as a huge tragedy in national media? You know, so that you could care. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1497 "2015-07-30T05:41:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How would you care if it isn’t reported? > > [http://static.nicic.gov/Library/024308.pdf](http://static.nicic.gov/Library/024308.pdf) > > 696 suicides in jails in 2005-2006. One a day. Is every one of them reported as a huge tragedy in national media, or even a significant percentage? > > A better question - _should_ each one be reported as a huge tragedy in national media? You know, so that you could care. I was thinking about that, and wondering if the 2012 suicide in the same jail led to the same level of investigation. If no family with an aggressive attorney comes forward, what happens? Hard to say anything without knowing the specifics of each incident. As for the media, you know it’s all about “selling papers” or clickbait stories. This case had enough controversial features (and video evidence) to make it go viral. But there are reporters, bloggers, and social media junkies covering lesser known cases. Are you on Twitter? People _should_ care, but in my experience, prisoner rights and conditions are pretty low on the general public’s priority list. Maybe having more video evidence and a reactive social media will change that. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1498 "2015-07-30T06:14:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A better question - _should_ each one be reported as a huge tragedy in national media? You know, so that you could care. Just remembered something: A few months ago, _The Guardian_ did an expose on the conditions in a “black site” detention center in Chicago (Homan Square). There was a thread started in GD about it, and I was posting in it, along with the usual posters interested in this issue (although I don’t remember you posting in it). The usual scoffers weren’t buying it: _I don’t trust The Guardian, I don’t trust the word of prisoners, I don’t trust the word of Public Defenders, I don’t trust Prisoner Advocates_… etc. And this wasn’t about race (or sex); there were white, black, male, female detainees making these claims, and they were all there for non-violent crimes. No video, no story. No one believes it unless there’s video proof. Not even to call for an investigation of the allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1499 "2015-07-30T09:53:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Was that before or after she kicked him so hard he got scratches on his hand? Before. This was before she left the car. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1500 "2015-07-30T09:57:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Are you counting as the first “Step out” the phrase “Well you can step on out now”? The authoritative imperative command is phrased as permission? This is the phrase the conveys legal detention and seizure of the person, the arrested one. > > “OK, Rocky, you can lie down on the pavement with your hands clasped over your head. Feel free to bleed…” No. At “Well, you can step out now,” her refusal could not be the basis of any charge, since as you correctly point out, all she’s heard is either a request or an invitation (or permission). But when the officer says she’s under arrest, she’s under arrest, with no ambiguity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=76)