# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1761 "2015-08-13T19:31:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If her whole family had been killed in a car accident the week before it would have had an effect on her mental well being too. Would that let us hand wave away the mistakes that were made? No, it would make whoever caused the accident responsible for Bland’s suicide. If you accept the logic that assigns responsibility to the arresting officer for her death. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1762 "2015-08-13T19:39:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If her whole family had been killed in a car accident the week before it would have had an effect on her mental well being too. Would that let us hand wave away the mistakes that were made? Are you saying that if things were different, things would be different? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1763 "2015-08-13T19:56:20Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you saying that if things were different, things would be different? No, not at all. I am saying why she was suicidal is not the point. She told them she had tried suicide before. There are procedures in place when dealing with a possibly suicidal prisoner which weren’t followed. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1764 "2015-08-13T20:44:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, not at all. I am saying why she was suicidal is not the point. She told them she had tried suicide before. There are procedures in place when dealing with a possibly suicidal prisoner which weren’t followed. If things were different, things would, in fact, be different. People have blamed the sheriff, the police dept., jail personnel, racism, the “man”, the “system”, and **camille** even blamed me, for killing Bland. As it turned out, Sandra Bland killed herself. I believe that if there is going to be a discussion about why Bland died, there is no reason not to include the actions of the Bland family and their possible effects on Sandra Bland’s state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1765 "2015-08-13T21:16:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If things were different, things would, in fact, be different. > > People have blamed the sheriff, the police dept., jail personnel, racism, the “man”, the “system”, and **camille** even blamed me, for killing Bland. As it turned out, Sandra Bland killed herself. I believe that if there is going to be a discussion about why Bland died, there is no reason not to include the actions of the Bland family and their possible effects on Sandra Bland’s state of mind. Change is constant therefore if things were different, things would be exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1766 "2015-08-13T23:35:36Z")
But in a different way. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1767 "2015-08-13T23:49:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes, I am. Bland’s choice of suicide makes this story different that the other anti-police stories. If you don’t wish to discuss the Bland families non-involvement, no one is forcing you to. OTOH, you don’t get to decide who can discuss it. Sucks to be you, dude. > > Family helps family. It’s shocking to learn that you, personally, can’t/shouldn’t count on your own family in times of crisis. Or are you just that difficult to deal with? Again I point out that the difference is that the public doesn’t have the same kind of representational interest in Bland’s family’s behavior as we do in the behavior of the sheriff in running his jail. I will happily concede, _arguendo_, that if Bland’s family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, Bland may not have remained locked up. But I don’t believe that gives the public an action item to debate; Bland’s family is not executing public policy. But the sheriff is. So, given my concession, can we now turn our attention to the jail procedures? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1768 "2015-08-14T12:04:09Z")
Am I correct in saying there are different rules, limitations and procedures if the jail is dealing with a suicidal inmate? She had a history of attempted suicide (IIRC), epilepsy, and depression, and yet she wasn’t put on some sort of suicide watch or some other means of special attention. No matter that Bland killed herself, she was under the jail’s custody and fully responsible for her well being. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1769 "2015-08-14T12:09:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, given my concession, can we now turn our attention to the jail procedures? That’s a worthwhile suggestion. What specifically are the jail procedures, and what should trigger putting an inmate on suicide watch? Ms. Bland gave conflicting answers on her jail intake forms - both saying that she had never been depressed, was currently very depressed, had previously attempted suicide, and allegedly told a jailer that she was not depressed but just [upset about her arrest](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sandra-bland-admitted-previous-suicide-texas-sheriff-article-1.2301056). I don’t know much about the specifics of suicide prevention in Texas. All I could find from a quick Google is [this](http://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2015/07/24/texas-jail-death-focuses-new-attention-on-inmate-suicides) - > [@](#): > > State law requires county jails to determine an inmate’s suicide risk and whether enhanced security measures are needed. The state only requires that an inmate be observed in person at least once every hour. An inmate who may be suicidal or who displays bizarre behavior must be checked every 30 minutes. > > A suicide prevention plan filed by the Waller County Jail, where Bland was found dead July 13, requires all jailers to get two hours of annual mental health training. It also says inmates with high suicide risk should be observed every 5 minutes. > > The four-page plan was filed in 2010 with the Texas Commission on Jail Standards, which released it Friday to The Associated Press. > > The plan sets out the same requirements for all inmates deemed suicidal: a paper gown instead of cloth, isolation in a single cell and no allowances for personal property or linens. I can’t find anything on how it is determined if an inmate is at high risk for suicide. Bland was apparently not judged to be so, since she did not wear the paper gown and was only checked every hour. FWIW the same cite says - > [@](#): > > Statistically, white male inmates are most likely to die by their own hand, both nationally and in Texas. Women make up just a fraction of total jail suicides, and Bland was the only black woman found to have killed herself in a Texas jail since 2009. White privilege strikes again. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1770 "2015-08-14T14:05:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again I point out that the difference is that the public doesn’t have the same kind of representational interest in Bland’s family’s behavior as we do in the behavior of the sheriff in running his jail. > > I will happily concede, _arguendo_, that if Bland’s family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, Bland may not have remained locked up. But I don’t believe that gives the public an action item to debate; Bland’s family is not executing public policy. > > But the sheriff is. > > So, given my concession, can we now turn our attention to the jail procedures? You have always been free to discuss any aspect of the Bland incident that you wish. I guess there is some question as to whether I enjoy that same freedom? Your speaking from a legal standpoint. It appears that you’ve been patiently dealing with people who do not care what the law says, or prefer to substitute their own reality for established statute. Good luck with that. I’m addressing the moral obligation of a family to it’s own. If the Bland family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, it’s possible that Sandra would not have had to leave Illinois to find a home, find a job, or, possibly, escape the influences of her family. **up\_the\_junction** has gone so far as to introduced the idea of the evils of suburbia and/or family life. How dare a family support family members. How dare a family member expect support from their family. What kind of twisted logic is that? Perhaps gang affiliation, ideologies, or a political party has replaced the family as a means of support? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1771 "2015-08-14T15:55:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You have always been free to discuss any aspect of the Bland incident that you wish. I guess there is some question as to whether I enjoy that same freedom? > > Your speaking from a legal standpoint. It appears that you’ve been patiently dealing with people who do not care what the law says, or prefer to substitute their own reality for established statute. Good luck with that. > > I’m addressing the moral obligation of a family to it’s own. If the Bland family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, it’s possible that Sandra would not have had to leave Illinois to find a home, find a job, or, possibly, escape the influences of her family. > > **up\_the\_junction** has gone so far as to introduced the idea of the evils of suburbia and/or family life. How dare a family support family members. How dare a family member expect support from their family. What kind of twisted logic is that? > > Perhaps gang affiliation, ideologies, or a political party has replaced the family as a means of support? Familys are complicated. Have you ever had a family member who got arrested multiple times for traffic offenses? At some point I’m sure a family will let the person stay in the can for a while anyway, esp if it’s a burden to get them out. Nobody knew this would be such a fateful weekend for Ms Bland. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1772 "2015-08-14T16:07:43Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You have always been free to discuss any aspect of the Bland incident that you wish. I guess there is some question as to whether I enjoy that same freedom? Of course you do. I’m inviting you to discuss this particular aspect of the issue; you’re free to disregard my invitation and continue your own way. > [@](#): > > Your speaking from a legal standpoint. It appears that you’ve been patiently dealing with people who do not care what the law says, or prefer to substitute their own reality for established statute. Good luck with that. Yes: that happens on the SDMB on days that end in ‘y’. > [@](#): > > I’m addressing the moral obligation of a family to it’s own. If the Bland family were better, more caring, or possibly simply wealthier people, it’s possible that Sandra would not have had to leave Illinois to find a home, find a job, or, possibly, escape the influences of her family. Yes, for the purposes of this discussion, I absolutely concede that point. > [@](#): > > **up\_the\_junction** has gone so far as to introduced the idea of the evils of suburbia and/or family life. How dare a family support family members. How dare a family member expect support from their family. What kind of twisted logic is that? > > Perhaps gang affiliation, ideologies, or a political party has replaced the family as a means of support? Well, we could drag in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and speculate about which needs are met by which of those systems, I suppose. But you’ve already observed the willingness of many people to reject clear law in favor of repeating their own assertions about what the law is, as though repetition could transform fact. How much more unconstrained would such a rhetor be if I engaged in a discussion like that, where there are fewer, if any, objectively provable facts? No, I decline to speculate about the reasons for a family to support, or fail to support, one of its members. The standards used at the jail, in contrast, is a subject at least nominally grounded in provable assertions. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1773 "2015-08-14T17:52:43Z")
I don’t see why doorhinge is jumping around all this rhetoric about her family, when he’s already made his opinion clear that her suicide is no one’s fault but her own. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1774 "2015-08-14T18:46:22Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I don’t see why doorhinge is jumping around all this rhetoric about her family, when he’s already made his opinion clear that her suicide is no one’s fault but her own. Well, in general, I agree with that sentiment: her suicide is her fault. But I’d contend that as a society, we have an interest in helping people who are struck by a suicidal impulse to work past it instead of give in to it. That doesn’t make a completed suicide anyone else’s fault, but it does express the aspiration that our various agencies will have controls in place to lessen someone bringing fault on themselves like that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1775 "2015-08-14T19:40:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, in general, I agree with that sentiment: her suicide is her fault. > > But I’d contend that as a society, we have an interest in helping people who are struck by a suicidal impulse to work past it instead of give in to it. That doesn’t make a completed suicide anyone else’s fault, but it does express the aspiration that our various agencies will have controls in place to lessen someone bringing fault on themselves like that. Of course. That’s why suicide prevention is very much an issue of the day. But when someone commits suicide while in custody it is ridiculous to focus on why the family didn’t pay the bail. Going so far as to speculate that maybe the person wouldn’t have been in Texas to be arrested if her family was nicer is beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1776 "2015-08-17T06:46:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well I think that a system that has basically built a loan shark industry is inherently more monetized than one that disallows it. > > Regardless, some googling shows that England can also require a “security” of actual cash in some cases for bail. So it’s definitely not true that no western nation demands money. One would have to dig in to actual common practices to see how the States implements cash requirements compared to other First World Nations. > eta: I see what you are saying billfish, but it’s my impression that onerous cash requirements for bail are simply less often imposed in Canada. And if you are middle class and have some money in your savings, it’d be nice to just be able to show you have it rather than hand it to the court for an extended period. I bailed a friend a couple of weeks ago here in the Caribbean. I had to produce proof of citizenship and sign a form. I would have been liable for about $1,100 US dollars had my friend not shown up in court. I was responsible for making sure he went. The case was thrown out of court but if he had required further bail I would have had to sign another form and prove I had the cash - still not actually deposit anything. The arrest was for swerving to avoid a pothole described as ‘reckless driving’. It’s his second altercation with this particular officer and the police advised him if there’s one more incident he should get a restraining order against that officer. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1777 "2015-08-17T13:27:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Of course. That’s why suicide prevention is very much an issue of the day. But when someone commits suicide while in custody it is ridiculous to focus on why the family didn’t pay the bail. Going so far as to speculate that maybe the person wouldn’t have been in Texas to be arrested if her family was nicer is beyond the pale. A conversation about suicide prevention would include all of the possible reasons that a person might chose suicide. In Sandra Bland’s case, that would include the support, or lack of support, from her family. Key words being “possible reasons”. While you are free to object to the inclusion of the actions of the Bland family, that doesn’t mean the actions of the Bland family can not be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1778 "2015-08-17T13:36:29Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I don’t see why doorhinge is jumping around all this rhetoric about her family, when he’s already made his opinion clear that her suicide is no one’s fault but her own. Just to clarify, are you saying you don’t understand why I include the Bland family’s actions in a thread concerning Bland’s arrest and subsequent personal choice of suicide or do you simply object to someone discussing any possible reason for Bland’s that do not include the usual condemnation/lie that the sheriff who arrested Bland must have murdered her? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1779 "2015-08-17T13:46:01Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Familys are complicated. Have you ever had a family member who got arrested multiple times for traffic offenses? At some point I’m sure a family will let the person stay in the can for a while anyway, esp if it’s a burden to get them out. Nobody knew this would be such a fateful weekend for Ms Bland. Eggs-actly. Nobody knew this would be such a fateful weekend for Ms Bland. From a legal standpoint, should everyone in jail be under observation 24/7? From a moral standpoint, should family members be expected to immediately stop what they’re doing and ride to the rescue every time a troubled family member repeatedly gets into trouble? The Bland family knew Sandra Bland’s troubled mind better than the arresting officer or jail personal did. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/1780 "2015-08-17T14:06:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The Bland family knew Sandra Bland’s troubled mind better than the arresting officer or jail personal did. I believe the Bland family is on record as not believing Sandra committed suicide, since she was starting a new job. So the family did not think she was suicidal, but apparently the jail administration should have know anyway. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=90)