# Sandra Bland video **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859 "2015-07-22T05:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/161 "2015-07-22T21:03:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > She wasn’t arrested for a benign traffic offense. The officer was going to write a warning citation and let her go. She wasn’t having any of that. > > Regards, > Shodan “She wasn’t having any of that”? What do you base that assertion on? The fact that she was about to sign the warning? The fact that she answered the officer’s question? The fact that she pulled over in the first place? I’m truly curious as to what evidence you’ve seen or heard that drew you to the conclusion that Miss Bland “wasn’t having any of that”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/162 "2015-07-22T21:05:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So your metric for right or wrong is whether the police are legally justified in their action? No, but what is legal/illegal is how we decide when someone should be subject to the legal system. It is also more generally enforceable than moral standards. If you want to debate morality, then it is morally wrong to mouth off to the police. It is also stupid, especially in a situation where the police can arrest you, at his discretion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/163 "2015-07-22T21:07:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And you are quite correct - he could have, but chose not to. > > AFAICT, the escalation went: > [ul] > [li]Bad driver commits a minor offense[/li][li]Police officer pulls said bad driver over[/li][li]Police officer decides to issue a warning citation[/li][li]Bad driver begins mouthing off[/li][li]Police officer orders her out of the car[/li][li]Bad driver refuses[/li][li]Four times[/li][li]Police officer threatens to Taze her (which is against policy, I believe)[/li][li]Bad driver decides to get out of the car[/li][li]Police officer decides that bad driver needs to be cuffed while he decides how further to proceed[/li][li]Bad driver resists cuffing[/li][li]Bad driver is then arrested, taken to jail, and two days later hangs herself[/li][li]Anyone who says “I don’t understand how a family would let their daughter stay in the stripey place for three days over $500” is actually saying “black families are inferior, they should all be sold at auction”[/li][/ul]Seems pretty straightforward to me. > > Regards, > Shodan I notice that you left something out. Right before your timeline says “Bad driver starts mouthing off” you should have written “Bad cop inititiates confrontational conversation”. Oh, and using a derogatory adjective to only describe one person in this exchange but not the other puts your bias on display wonderfully; thanks for doing it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/164 "2015-07-22T21:22:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you want to debate morality, then it is morally wrong to mouth off to the police. It is also stupid, especially in a situation where the police can arrest you, at his discretion. So, anything but a polite yes/no sir/ma’am means all bets are off and you’re fair game? Get mouthy with the police then dragging you out of your car and handcuffing you and hitting your head on the ground is fine. The person has it coming because they were stupid enough to argue with a police officer. Is that it? By your reckoning the trooper in [this (semi-famous) video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyHMbHHtArE) would have been not only been legally justified but morally in the right if he dragged that driver out of the car kicking and screaming, handcuffed him, threw him to the ground and then tossed him in jail for three days. I submit the right way to go about it is the way the trooper in the video I just linked does. I do not understand your (and others) efforts to absolve the police officer. I would bet part of their training includes dealing with belligerent people and I am also willing to bet the training stresses defusing situations and not letting them escalate if at all possible. The alternative is your world where you had better smile at the police regardless of the situation or expect a beat down and jail time. That world is the scary one. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/165 "2015-07-22T21:26:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. There _were_ problems uploading the video, as evidenced by the fact that a video has been uploaded which lacks the video glitches previously seen and in which there are no incongruities between the video and audio. You has been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/166 "2015-07-22T21:27:33Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I’ve only watched the first video, the one fouled up in the upload process. No where on that video does the officer order “Extinguish your cigarette”. Yes, that’s true. Those exact words are not used. I agree that he phrased it as a request. And I agree that, without more, it’s not clear at all that it was a lawful order. But that’s really not relevant. At the point at which the trooper says, “Well, you can step on out now,” she replies, “I don’t have to step out of the car,” and he responds in a harder tone, “Step out of the car,” she’s clearly and unambiguously being given an order. Moments later, after he’s opened the car door, he says, “Step out or I will remove you. I’m giving you a lawful order.” Do you contend that order is lawful? Or not? If you believe it is unlawful, can you articulate the specific facts supporting your belief? A moment later, she says, “Don’t touch me, I’m not under arrest,” and he replies, “You are under arrest.” Do you agree at that point, she was unambiguously under arrest? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/167 "2015-07-22T21:33:08Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > It would be helpful if you’d explain why you think this, otherwise my answer is: > > “Do you mind putting out your cigarette?” … hello … this is _after_ the poor girl said she was done being upset. First of all, what business is it of the officer’s if shes mildly upset, listen to her, does she sound violently angry to you? > > Holy shit, it is NOT illegal to “mind” putting out your cigarette … it’s the officer who escalated the situation … he did NOT order her until he said “get out of the car” … > > I say he gave an illegal order … now she’d DEAD … that’s murder … if there’s a racist card to be played here, then it’s a hate crime … then life in prison too good for the officer. > > Maybe it’s the officer who has PTSD … it’s the whitie thing to claim these days I don’t know where I’d begin. Yep, murder it was. Murder by the whitie. Actually, I’ll bet it was a lynching party. And with complicit, lazy medical examiners and all, I wouldn’t be surprised if the mayor himself was there. Poor girl. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/168 "2015-07-22T21:41:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Bondsmen work 24/7 (here is [one in the vicinity](http://www.austincountybailbonds.com/)) Whatever - this is a side issue. I just find it pretty inexplicable that family would leave a family member in jail for 3 days when they could get her out for $500. Wouldn’t happen in my family. Guess families differ. One of the complaints she made when she was arrested was that the police officer was banging her head into the ground such that she could not even hear or see. When she was put into the Jain cell, she was given a PIN to make one phone call which she did not make. There exists the possibility that the reason she could not make that call was that she had head trauma which would be covered up if she was to say hang herself in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/169 "2015-07-22T21:47:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > While I think the cop almost certainly over-reacted, I wonder if more of the blame needs to be on the folks administering the jail. Why was bail set so high, and why was she just not released after a few hours and given a fine? Seems like there is blame to spread around here, but people should not held in jail for 3 days for a traffic violation as minor as not signaling when changing lanes. The bail was set and she was in jail NOT for the traffic violation, but for assault on an officer. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/170 "2015-07-22T21:48:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > That phrase makes my skin crawl. We are a free people and we don’t have to obey cops automatically, they need a damn good reason to ask us to do something and are not in any position to give us orders. Gas main is about to blow, sure they can order us not to go down that street. Putting out a cigarette or exercising free speech, not so much. The lawful order was to get out of the car. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/171 "2015-07-22T21:53:33Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > One of the complaints she made when she was arrested was that the police officer was banging her head into the ground such that she could not even hear or see. When she was put into the Jain cell, she was given a PIN to make one phone call which she did not make. There exists the possibility that the reason she could not make that call was that she had head trauma which would be covered up if she was to say hang herself in jail. She called her friend once to tell her she was in jail and that “she was going to pursue that officer who abused her,” and she needed help finding a witness. Then she called the friend the next day, telling him that her bond had been set. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/172 "2015-07-22T21:56:18Z")
This new video is quite weird. Almost like a bad acting class. They both seem calm, even when Sandra explains why she’s irritated. Then all of a sudden it sounds like a different cop talking about the cigarette. “Would you puh-leeease puuut out your cig-o-rette!” Here’s where Sandra may not have known something. I was once pulled over while smoking in traffic in Hollywood. The first officer said, “Put out that cigarette right now” before even getting near my car. Her partner walked behind her on the left and was covering his gun. I get a ticket for not having my insurance card with me. After all that I ask about the cigarette. The officer told me it is considered a “dangerous weapon” and must be extinguished. WTF??? Even if I flipped it at someone, they may get burned, but certainly not set on fire. I think this is another pittable bullshit cop excuse to overreact. Feel like you’re losing control? If you’re a smoker, make sure you don’t light up. It’s like firecrackers to a dog. Cops think you’re asking for trouble by holding a matchbook in a swimming pool. They seem to think you’re asking them to be mistreated. Still, wasn’t this just about over when he came back to her car? Write the ticket and leave. Why not? It’s over. BUT… not if you’re another shit-head cop who just loves to make trouble. All of a sudden, someone smoking on their way to a job interview is a dangerous threat? A big enough one to drag someone out of their vehicle over? Then the cop acts like a shithead. She says she’s not under arrest, he says yes you are. He’s making it up as he goes along. He never answers her as to WHY she’s being arrested, probably because he needs to read his handbook on that one. It really pisses me off that now we’ve gotten to the point where we can’t even ask the cop questions, but we have to guess how to behave and quickly figure out the cop’s attitude to end the situation quickly. Kinda like being mugged. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/173 "2015-07-22T21:56:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do the folks administering the jail normally set the bail, whether it’s high or low? I thought that was done by a judge, not the jail. I could be wrong, though. I worded that poorly, and have should have included the judge. That’s my fault. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/174 "2015-07-22T21:58:22Z")
Ok, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/175 "2015-07-22T22:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] At the point at which the trooper says, “Well, you can step on out now,” she replies, “I don’t have to step out of the car,” and he responds in a harder tone, “Step out of the car,” she’s clearly and unambiguously being given an order. Moments later, after he’s opened the car door, he says, “Step out or I will remove you. I’m giving you a lawful order.” Do you contend that order is lawful? Or not? [/quote] According to Jim Harrington, Texas attorney and director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, the officer was not allowed to ask her to step out of the car without providing a reason why he wanted her to do so. From an interview on the Texas Standard web site from 7/22: > [@](#): > > _The next part: “Step out of the car.” Ms. Bland says, “You do not have the right.” He interrupts – “I do have the right, step out of the car or I will remove you.” Does he have the right, first, to order her to step out of the car, and second, to actually physically remove her from the car?_ > > “He does not have the right to say get out of the car. He has to express some reason. ‘I need to search your car,’ or, whatever; he needs to give a reason. He can’t just say ‘get out of the car’ for a traffic offense.” > > _It’s one thing to say he has a reason; it’s another to say he has to give a reason. He may have had probable cause, or thought he had it, we don’t know. Does he have to state it?_ > > “He doesn’t have to state probable cause; he has to state some reason … And that’s part of the training that he should have had about how to de-escalate a situation. She’s clearly upset about what happened, particularly – as we know later on – that she moved over because he was tailing her. … He should be working on de-escalation. That’s the key. ” It’s pretty clear that the cop’s intention from the very beginning of the exchange was to escalate the situation. That’s unforgivably bad behavior for a peace officer. Her attitude is irrelevant. Your civil rights are not contingent on your demeanor. This is about bad policing leading to worse outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/176 "2015-07-22T22:05:54Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If this cop flies off the handle at a routine traffic stop where the person doesn’t even raise her voice he should be glued to a desk. > > This is another example of why you should never, ever talk to the police and you should do what they say, even if they don’t have the right or they’re being unreasonable. You especially shouldn’t antagonize and curse them out. Especially if you’re black. Cops hate it when you challenge their authority and show them up. She even challenged his masculinity! A lot of her insults would be funny if she didn’t end up dead. [Then again, you could do everything they ask you to do and still get shot as a black man.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63WlopaIIyo) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/177 "2015-07-22T22:09:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The lawful order was to get out of the car. For what reason? Did he say, I’m putting you under arrest, I need you to get out of the car? No. It was basically a “Me Tarzan, You Jane” moment where she was supposed to do his bidding without being told why. I stand by my point that the phrase “lawful order” is repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/178 "2015-07-22T22:10:18Z")
This cop linked her failure to put out the cigarette with his telling her to get out of the car. And she felt correctly that he had no right to arrest her for that. Further he had ended the stop with a warning. He didn’t give any other cause for this confrontation. He knew since she’s human (Apparently unlike many posters here) that this would result in him being able to swing his overcompensating texas thing around. It’s what we saw with the other case where the guy was too lazy to run after the dude and just shot him in the back. He couldn’t be bothered to act civil to a taxpayer, because …Texas, or something. This thing of “Are you finished” is what people say just before they screw with you. Basically they pretend you are irrational. He was saying she had no right to be angry with him or express herself about it. Also if you’re so sure about when she was under arrest then why is he discussing on the tape whether she was under as soon as the car stopped, and reading from his manual about where he stood legally, discussing with other officers what the charge was, resisting or assault and battery? (Resisting arrest for what exactly?) Nothing to do with anything before this false arrest. No Ciggy butt charges? Cmon Texas wheres the law and order? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/179 "2015-07-22T22:19:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that’s true. Those exact words are not used. > > I agree that he phrased it as a request. And I agree that, without more, it’s not clear at all that it was a lawful order. > > But that’s really not relevant. > > At the point at which the trooper says, “Well, you can step on out now,” she replies, “I don’t have to step out of the car,” and he responds in a harder tone, “Step out of the car,” she’s clearly and unambiguously being given an order. Moments later, after he’s opened the car door, he says, “Step out or I will remove you. I’m giving you a lawful order.” > > Do you contend that order is lawful? Or not? > > If you believe it is unlawful, can you articulate the specific facts supporting your belief? > > A moment later, she says, “Don’t touch me, I’m not under arrest,” and he replies, “You are under arrest.” > > Do you agree at that point, she was unambiguously under arrest? He requested her to put out her cigarette. She said something like, “It’s my car, I don’t have to put out my cigarette.” At this, he immediately ordered her to step out of her vehicle. WTF? Now, it may be the case that an officer can arrest anyone for any minor traffic violation in Texas, but it’s clear that 1) She had no idea this was the case, and 2) The cop was clearly goading her so he could take action. I get that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but no one is clear on every damn law that’s out there, especially if new to a different State. And the officer egregiously took advantage of that. He let it get personal and had nothing to do with not signaling. Why would he even request her to put out the cigarette in the first place? That’s all-out entrapment. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859/180 "2015-07-22T22:34:29Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > According to Jim Harrington, Texas attorney and director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, the officer was not allowed to ask her to step out of the car without providing a reason why he wanted her to do so. From an interview on the Texas Standard web site from 7/22: The officer acted like a dick. That being said, the attorney you quote is wrong. In [Pennsylvania v. Mimms](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16533225265380952768&q=Pennsylvania+v.+Mimms&hl=en&as_sdt=2006&as_vis=1), the officer making the stop and ordering the driver out of the vehicle stipulated "had no reason to suspect foul play from the particular driver at the time of the stop, there having been nothing unusual or suspicious about his behavior. It was apparently his practice to order all drivers out of their vehicles as a matter of course whenever they had been stopped for a traffic violation. The State argues that this practice was adopted as a precautionary measure to afford a degree of protection to the officer and that it may be justified on that ground. " This practice was upheld. It was later applied to passengers in vehicles as well in Maryland v. Wilson. During a lawful traffic stop, police can order the driver and all occupants out of the vehicle for any reason, or no reason - as long as the specific reason doesn’t run afoul of other protections or limitations, or the state law doesn’t control further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandra-bland-video/725859.md?page=10)