# Sandy Berger investigated for stealing terror memos **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919 "2004-07-20T01:26:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/121 "2004-07-21T19:51:32Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > I’m really enjoying the role-reversal in this thread with the Kerryopticons adopting the Bushista playbook… > > 1. Our man would **never** do anything illegal. > > 2. OK, he did it but it wasn’t that bad. > > 3. Well, it might have been that bad, but what **your** guy did was much worse. Well, there’s some of that, which I don’t agree with. But I think there’s a fair amount of “Yeeouch! Dumbass…” among the Kerry supporters as well. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/122 "2004-07-21T19:51:48Z")
I agree with that Moto: Berger should pretty obviously have had his security clearance yanked if all the allegations are true. Of course, it doesn’t seem to have been yanked yet already, which is odd if all the allegations are true. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/123 "2004-07-21T19:57:01Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I certainly don’t deny any of this. But the National Security Advisor to the President will have a clearance, regardless of how many other people in the government have it. And with that clearance should come a working knowlege of the handling procedures for the material involved. > > It doesn’t affect the case of Sandy Berger at all, to my mind. I’m not excusing Berger for being an idiot that doesn’t know procedure, but giving someone clearance doesn’t automatically mean they have a working knowledge of handling procedures for secure information. In fact, a lot of government officials, such as Congressman, don’t have to go through the same procedures as a lowly normal citizen to get a clearance and I would assume that a position like National Security Advisor is the same. If these people need clearance, it is given to them whether they would pass the normal screening or not, thus I find it very likely that a lot of them don’t feel a pressing need to actually know all the procedures. By the way, the reason certain government officials don’t go through the normal screening process is because too many of them would fail to get clearance, particularly because of the credit checks. According to [this page](http://www.capitolhillblue.com/Aug1999/081699/criminalclass1-081699.htm), 53 members of Congress would fail a clearance application with the DoD due to credit problems. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/124 "2004-07-21T20:10:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My comment was intended to rebut the inference that Mr. Berger was seeking to remove and destroy documents that would have embarrassed him specifically or the Democrats in general. > > I agree that the disclosure of a copy is as damaging as the disclosure of an original. What I don’t see here is: (1) Any evidence that such disclosure occurred, and (2) Any infomration about just how damaging, if at all, the disclosure of these documents would have been. Do you have any solid information in this regard? This editorial from the _Wall Street Journal_ has good information on all of your points. > **[Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal](https://www.wsj.com/news/opinion)** > > Get The Wall Street Journal’s Opinion columnists, editorials, op-eds, letters to the editor, and book and arts reviews. I can’t say that disclosure occurred. I don’t know how the documents were lost, or if, when Berger says they were “discarded”, they were destroyed according to procedures for destroying documents of this classification. You don’t just chuck these things into the wastecan. Did Berger disclose information? No, not directly. Did he risk disclosure through his actions? Certainly, and that’s a crime in and of itself. It’s a security violation. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/125 "2004-07-21T23:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Razorsharp] Clinton let Osama off the hook. [QUOTE] Af, as we all know, GW went into Afghanistan after Osama, followed through magnificently and the US arch enemy is now in custody and awaiting trial. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/126 "2004-07-21T23:14:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Never mind the absurdity of the suggestion that Sandy Berger is “disclosing” anything to the enemy, I’m just curious how the hypothetical disclosure of obsolute, Clinton-era documents would cause our country damage. Maybe Berger sold the docs to time travelling terrorists? Thus bringing us back to Arnold. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/127 "2004-07-21T23:38:57Z")
> [@Live Better Electrically!](#): > > Limbaugh is talking about this as I write. He’s arguing that Berger played a major role as a Kerry advisor/spokesman, and that Kerry’s subsequent characterization of Berger as an “informal advisor” is dishonest damage control. Well, hell, if Limbaugh says he’s guilty, he _must_ be innocent! Case closed! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/128 "2004-07-21T23:46:40Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > The only difference in the first attack on the World Trade Center and the attack of 9-11, is that the 9-11 attack was deemed a success by achieving the desired results of total destruction. The terrorists that were responsible for the first bombing, had every intention of bringing the towers to the ground and killing as many Americans as possible. The first attempt did not achieve the desired results. > > Clinton let Osama off the hook. Clinton is more responbsible than Dubya for 9-11. Well, then, if this was so bad a policy, George W. had 8 months to reverse it before Sept. 11 occurred. By then there had also been the U.S.S. Cole attack and the one on the embassies in Africa. And, by all believable accounts, Bush actually put less emphasis on the terrorism issue and Bin Laden than Clinton had. You may be right that the first WTC attack should have raised more warning flags for us. But, the fact is that there is a huge difference between a failed attack and a successful attack in terms of the political climate that it creates. That is why neither president made it a priority to go after Bin Laden although it appears that it was less of a priority for Bush pre-9/11 than it had been for Clinton. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > This editorial from the Wall Street Journal has good information on all of your points. Sorry, but I read the WSJ editorial page religiously for a while and I can safely say that they don’t trade in information. They trade in deception and half-truths. You can read their opinions all you want…But you had better check every “fact” they give you because many of them will be untrue or at least incomplete. (In my experience from issues I knew in detail like climate change and tax issues, I would say my use of “many” here is rather conservative…and I could probably say “most”.) The WSJ **news pages** are a reputable source of information; the WSJ **editorial page** is a source of propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/129 "2004-07-21T23:56:39Z")
Kos and the CfAP raise a whole lot of salient points that make the leak as well as the more salacious aspects of the story that as of yet have no confirmation look pretty darn suspicious: > **[Smearing Berger to distract from 9/11](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2004/7/21/39375/-)** > > I have admittedly ignored the Sandy Berger thing. Everything I read indicated that he may have done something stupid, but if Ashcroft's Justice Department wasn't interested in pursuing a case, it c... Note that the WSJ page was one of the two (NYPost) papers that published the bogus accusations against Teresa Heinz-Kerry’s connection to all sorts of supposedly unamerican groups via the Tides center. And then of course didn’t seriously bother to retract or correct their nasty insinuations and innuendo. Par for the course. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/130 "2004-07-22T00:17:35Z")
Wait a minute, hold everything! You don’t mean that perfectly ridiculous shit posted in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/131 "2004-07-22T00:39:16Z")
Sadly, my mom now ranks among those naive enough to believe the crap about his socks. So let’s see here, someone saw him stuffing classified material in his underwear and socks, became an accessory to the crime by not alerting security or the police, but did run out to the lunatic right media with the story months later, provided his/her name wasn’t used. And this despite the fact that even by that account, Berger somehow got documents out in his briefcase, making it rather odd he felt the need to draw attention to papers bulging out of his nether regions. Luckily we have the mighty liberal media to point out the abysmal quality of these lies… Hello? Guys? Oh, wait, they’re busy putting together a graphic showing how to most efficiently conceal papers in your underwear. Good work people. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/132 "2004-07-22T01:05:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait a minute, hold everything! You don’t mean that perfectly ridiculous shit posted in the Pit? Uh, yes. You expected different from the WSJ editorial page (which has a regular feature in which a return to the gold standard is touted as the salvation of humanity) or the NYPost (no examples needed). Michelle Malkin is involved with at least one of them for goodness sakes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/133 "2004-07-22T01:19:25Z")
No, it was more like if it were worded like the POS in the Pit. Just seemed as though what I read there was not up to the snotty patrician tone the WSJ seems to admire. Of course, I could just go look it up myself if I weren’t so lazy and easily…look! Shiny! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/134 "2004-07-22T01:35:32Z")
Fred Kaplan, who knows a heck of a lot about these matters, weighs in. He seems to think most of the major side issues raised are bullshit: Berger is clearly guilty of violating archive policy whether through arrogance or negligence, but all the other side stories that people like Sam Stone and Moto have tried to spin out (but can’t seem to very plausibly SPELL out) look pretty bullshity, in his estimation. [http://slate.com/id/2104138/](http://slate.com/id/2104138/) Mickey Kaus, who passiontely hates both Kerry and Berger, can’t seem to find much either to carp about: [http://slate.com/id/2104072/](http://slate.com/id/2104072/) He also notes that the WSJ is now calling for the release of the drafts, presumably because they want to play the theory that Berger was part of some conspiracy coverup. But he notes how absurd that makes the security concerns look in the first place. This brings us back to the possibility that, while classified, the documents in question may not have contained dangerous material after all, given that the government over the last few admistrations have the habit of over-classifying everything. If the docs (whom everyone knows the general contents of already) can be released publicaly (presumably so that people like the WSJ can point to this or that sentance criticizing the Clintons as evidence of a conspiracy, even though the content of that sentance is no doubt already widely known) it’s not clear that Berger is quite the dangerous criminal as he is the dangerous bufoon. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/135 "2004-07-22T01:39:44Z")
**LOOK! THe Circus is coming to Town!** > [@](#): > > Speaker of the House J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) today made the following statement: > > "Like many Americans concerned about our national security, I look forward to learning more from the House Government Reform Committee’s investigation into the wayward actions by Sandy Berger. The American people deserve to know why Mr. Berger apparently skirted the law and removed highly classified terrorism documents… [Speaker Hastert on Congressional Investigation Regarding National Security and Sandy Berger](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=178-07212004) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/136 "2004-07-22T02:34:21Z")
Hmm… [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004\_07/004350.php](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_07/004350.php) As Kevin Drum notes, not all breaches of security seem to be alike, even when one was clearly intentional and malicious, and the other is not. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/137 "2004-07-22T03:13:28Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > **LOOK! THe Circus is coming to Town!** [Speaker Hastert on Congressional Investigation Regarding National Security and Sandy Berger](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=178-07212004) Ya just knew this shit would happen. Great. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/138 "2004-07-22T03:54:36Z")
Which then makes this shit entirely predictable: [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040722/pl\_afp/us\_vote\_attacks\_berger&cid=1521&ncid=1963&sid=96378801](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040722/pl_afp/us_vote_attacks_berger&cid=1521&ncid=1963&sid=96378801) > [@](#): > > This is a very serious matter that will be fully investigated by the Justice Department," Bush said. and followed by: > [@](#): > > …Why would the (Kerry) campaign launch arbitrary attacks instead of offering clear assurance to the American people that the Kerry campaign did not benefit from classified documents that were removed from the National Archives by one of their advisers, Sandy Berger, now subject to a criminal investigation," asked Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman… I, as an American, am truly and deeply anxiouis to have these questions answered. In what nefarious, and thus far unrevealed, way did the Kerry campaign benefit? In the intervening months between this dastardly act of potential possibility, how has the Kerry campaign applied these crucial pieces of data? Clearly, they have kept the matter closely under a cloak of clandestine skullduggery because no one apparently knows to what treasonous purpose these documents have been utilized. The campaign of slander against Bush was so subtle, no one even knew it had happened! Now, that’s devious! That’s _cunning_! Dare I say “treasonous”? Well, no one knows! Maybe! Could be! Some of those documents were less than three years old! A treasure trove of up to the decade information. (Excuse while I turn down the TV, some maroon is trying to distract me with some drivel about “missed opportunities” to thwart the 9/11 disaster…really, I can be bothered which such extraneous trivia…where was I? Oh, right!) Some people are saying that there could have been any number of clandestine meetings with Arkansas State troopers, who were known to be in the country at this time… ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/139 "2004-07-22T04:13:19Z")
Hmm… looks like the socks thing was heavily bolstered by Fox spin: when they originally wrote up the story, they claimed that it was Berger and his lawyer that said outright that he had stuffed things in his socks. Except, they never said that. So far, the only source on that is an anonymous source quoting ANOTHER anonymous source. However, their original misreport, so far never corrected to my knowledge, helped the socks thing spread much faster and gave it more initial credibility. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/140 "2004-07-22T07:20:01Z")
Interesting nugget of information: From the former Calpundit, now > **[Washington Monthly Magazine](https://washingtonmonthly.com/)** > > We’re an independent voice, listened to by insiders and willing to take on sacred cows—liberal and conservative. > [@](#): > > THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW…Tom Davis is the Republican chairman of the House Government Reform Committee. Among other things, this means he’s the point man for congressional investigations of governmental misdeeds. > > Here is Tom Davis on his plans to open an investigation into the outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame, which was first exposed by David Corn on July 16, 2003: > > July 17, 2003: Nothing. > > October 3, 2003: “I know [John] Ashcroft very well, and I’m sure he’ll go by the book.” Um, OK. Nonetheless, he also said he was “gearing up” to lead an investigation of the matter. “It’s our obligation to do so. This is something we can’t tolerate.” > > January 23, 2004: “If they don’t find it, we will. It will be looked at and second-guessed. It’s a troubling and serious violation.” But we’ll still wait on gearing up that investigation. > > July 21, 2004: Still gearing up. No investigation yet. > > Two days ago, on July 19, 2004, AP reported that former NSA Sandy Berger had removed some classified documents from the National Archives and is the subject of an active FBI investigation. How does Davis feel about this? > > July 21, 2004: Congress has “a constitutional responsibility to find out what happened and why. At best, we’re looking at tremendously irresponsible handling of highly classified information.” An investigation is underway. > > Hey! Tom Davis can move mighty quickly when he puts his mind to it! I wonder what the difference between these two cases is?.. (I assume this is not too extensive a quote? Advise and abuse if mistaken.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919.md?page=8)