# Sandy Berger investigated for stealing terror memos **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919 "2004-07-20T01:26:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/161 "2004-07-23T13:45:14Z")
Well, at least we have one theory dispensed with… [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/) Tucker “Baby Face” Carlson: “There is nothing random about the documents he took. Berger stripped the files of every single copy of a single memo which detailed the Clinton administration’s response to the Y2K terror threat…” 9/11 Commissioners Gorelick and Gorton, with Lou Dobbs: Gorton: “…We have every one of those documents. All of them have – are infused in and are a part of our report.” DOBBS: So the commission was denied no information as a result of whatever Sandy Berger did or did not do at the National Archives? GORTON: That’s precisely correct. GORELICK: And we have been so assured by the Justice Department. I don’t know if the Bushwah about documents being “missing” originated with Tucker. Also not 100% on whether or not the identification of the nature of the un-missing documents…(Damn! Somebody on CNN is trying to distract my attention from this crucial issue of Sandy Berger’s perfidy by some silly twaddle about the 9/11 commission concluding that the “War on Terror” approach being strategicly stupid…) but at least it appears we can be assured that nothing is actually missing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/162 "2004-07-23T14:47:42Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Considering that John Kerry will not be sworn in as president until January 20, 2005, blaming him for events that happen after November 5, 2004 is really, really illogical. The post mentioned the attack on the USS Cole as an example of why Bush did nothing about terrorism. That attack happened in 2000, while Clinton was still President. Ergo, any terrorism that occurs between an election and the inauguration is the fault of the President-elect. Therefore, any terrorism between the election and the inauguration is Kerry’s fault, if he is elected. QED. > [@jshore](#): > > What I said is that one can hardly blame Clinton given that 8 months is plenty of time to reverse a policy one believes is misplaced. Even funnier. One can hardly blame Clinton for eight years of failure, because it would have been possible to correct his mistakes in less than eight months. So yes, Clinton was far more to blame for Osama bin Laden than Bush, since Clinton had twelve times longer to do something effective. But he didn’t, and the lefties are spinning themselves dizzy trying to find a rationale for blaming it on Bush. **Razorsharp** has it exactly right. If Condi Rice were in the hot seat, you people would have been organizing a lynch mob by now. But Berger is a Democrat, a former Clinton official, and a (former) Kerry advisor. So the rules just don’t apply. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/163 "2004-07-23T14:53:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Razorsharp** has it exactly right. If Condi Rice were in the hot seat, you people would have been organizing a lynch mob by now. But Berger is a Democrat, a former Clinton official, and a (former) Kerry advisor. > > So the rules just don’t apply. > > Regards, > Shodan Which people? Berger erred and should be appropriately punished. Plain. Simple. Easily understood. Get it? Is anyone saying differently? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/164 "2004-07-23T15:03:22Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Being that they were classified, I should hope not, exept in the vaguest of senses. > > As an aside, is ol’ Sandy a vital part of your plan to do whatever? I am a bit perplexed at the amazing contortions the ‘loyal opposition’ is going through in the keystone cop-esque effort to defend him. > > Fact: Sandy did something he should not have done. > > End of story. _Why_ he did it is still up for grabs. The quibbling details of what he did are up for grabs. (But due to the ‘classified’ nature, we will almost certainly never know the details.) > > But the **fact** remains. Sandy screwed the pooch, amazing rhetorical backflips from his loyal legions (and I bet he didn’t even know he had them!) notwithstanding. The question is who gives a shit? It’s a harmless, technical rules violation at most. No information was lost or concealed. No security was comprimised (Y2K threats, give me a break), no one seems to be able to conjecture a plausibly nefarious motive, and the FBI doesn’t even care very much. Some elements of the story were apparently fabricated for righty radio propaganda purposes (docs in socks…[snort]) and some reaching attempts have been made to somehow tie this to John Kerry. If there was nothing else important going on in the news, this might be an amusing topic of conversation to pass a little time. Even if we did not have any other, far more disturbing issues regarding classified files and national security it might be an entertaining MPSIMS kind of topic (sloppy former NSA dude absent mindedly takes classified docs home with him, ha ha ha), but since we have a current presidential administration being flim-flammed into giving much more sensitive and _active_ intelligence to Iran when it’s not calling reporters to out CIA operatives it seems extraordinary that some of the righties on this board are only just _now_ becoming concerned about national security and preserving classified information after being so deafeningly silent on Chalabi and Plame. Yes, I guess there is a chance that Sandy Berger secretly sold some obsolete, Clinton era documents to time-travelling terrorists out to exploit weakness in BC’s Y2K policy and stop the new millenium from ever occurring, but if that’s the case, we can just send Governor Schwarzenegger back in time to kill the terrorists and save Sarah Connor before any damage is done. So how about that Chalabi thing? Kind of disturbing, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/165 "2004-07-23T15:23:37Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Which people? Berger erred and should be appropriately punished. Plain. Simple. Easily understood. Get it? Is anyone saying differently? I thought I heard something different from that pile of straw over there… ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/166 "2004-07-23T17:15:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The post mentioned the attack on the USS Cole as an example of why Bush did nothing about terrorism. That attack happened in 2000, while Clinton was still President. Ergo, any terrorism that occurs between an election and the inauguration is the fault of the President-elect. Therefore, any terrorism between the election and the inauguration is Kerry’s fault, if he is elected. QED. You’re a real scarecrow fan. The reason the Cole is legitimately a problem for Bush is because he came into office after it occured. That event didn’t magically erase history: if the proper thing to do was retaliate, and Clinton didn’t do it, Bush didn’t do it either. There’s no “eight years vs. eight months” bullshit to do here: either we should have retaliated for the bombing and stepped up anti-terror efforts against Al Qaeda or we shouldn’t have. Neither President did so. Both are guilty of that mistake: and indeed Bush is moreso because the solid intelligence about who was responsible didn’t even come out until he was up to bat. The whole 8yrs vs. 8 months thing is nonsense anyway because of a little fact called time. It’s the thingamajig that makes certain events happen in sequence, rather than all in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/167 "2004-07-23T20:06:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Razorsharp** has it exactly right. If Condi Rice were in the hot seat, you people would have been organizing a lynch mob by now. But Berger is a Democrat, a former Clinton official, and a (former) Kerry advisor. Well, as some have noted, we are perfectly content with having Berger resign as National Security Advisor to the President. However, since he isn’t in that post at the moment, such a resignation doesn’t much make sense. As for any criminal wrongdoings, we are confident that the Ashcroft Justice Dept. won’t let him off the hook if there really is serious wrongdoing here. Speaking of which, how are the Valerie Plame and the Chalabi/Iran intelligence/code-breaking investigations going? I haven’t heard you calling out the lynch mobs yet. **Apos** addressed the 8 months vs. 8 years B.S. with much more patience than I could muster so we will leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/168 "2004-07-23T20:16:48Z")
My father used to be an Air Force officer. I asked him what he thinks about the Sandy Berger business. He said that Berger should go to jail if he’s committed a crime, but his behavior isn’t that hard to understand. People working in the highest levels of government (1) get to thinking they are invulnerable and can do no wrong, and (2) get into some bad and slopply habits. For instance, in the 1970s, my Dad worked at NSA and at the Pentagon. He often had to carry secret documents from the one headquarters to the other, and he usually simply stuck them in his coat pocket, unless the volume of documents was large enough to require a briefcase – and even then, he never cuffed the case to his wrist. All this was technically against the rules, but very common practice – one of his associates, a GS-18 (the very highest civil-service rank) referred to his coat pocket as “The Vault.” This is not the same as stuffing secret papers down one’s pants, but it’s not hard to see a behavioral slippery slope at work here. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/169 "2004-07-25T14:42:10Z")
And what possible motive could Sandy Berger have to intentionally remove classified documents from the National Archives? Well, how about this. > [@](#): > > Mr. Berger was presented with plans to take action against the threat of Al Qaeda four separate times - Spring 1998, June 1999, December 1999, and August 2000. Each time, Mr. Berger was an obstacle to action. Had he been a little less reluctant to act, a little more open to taking pre-emptive action, maybe the 2,973 killed in the September 11, 2001, attacks would be alive today. > > [http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/07/23&ID=Ar01000](http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/07/23&ID=Ar01000) Well gosh, maybe the Clinton administration is a little bit more culpable for the deaths of those who perished in the 9-11 attacks than what the “Ministry of Truth” is portraying. And being a Kerry campaign advisor, if that info were to get the publicity that it most certainly warrants, then that would have the effect of pissin’ in Kerry’s gunpowder. Can’t have that, got to keep the proletariat in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/170 "2004-07-25T15:16:47Z")
We are, of course, profoundly grateful to friend **Razorsharp** for calling our attention to the worthy efforts of the _New York Sun_ to counter the perfidy of the Liberalmedia. The article points out Mr. Berger’s “dovish” tendency, and his wishy-washy approach to national security issues, notably his insistence that an attack not be launched on ObL unless we were certain that the target was, in fact, ObL. Heaven forfend such an simpering attitude become a staple of policy! By the way, did you know Jane Fonda drinks flouridated water, as does John Kerry? Connect the dots, people, connect the dots! ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/171 "2004-07-25T16:21:06Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > And what possible motive could Sandy Berger have to intentionally remove classified documents from the National Archives? […] And being a Kerry campaign advisor, if that info were to get the publicity that it most certainly warrants, then that would have the effect of pissin’ in Kerry’s gunpowder. How exactly does taking home copies of documents prevent any information from being publicized? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/172 "2004-07-25T17:00:12Z")
Berger was, by all accounts, refreshing his memory for his own testimony to the commission. The _purpose of the process_ was to make this information public. What, he was trying to smuggle it out to sell it to the Iranians? He was trying to undermine the war effort because he simply hates America? Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/173 "2004-07-25T22:01:47Z")
Considering the dcuments in question have already been viewed by other folks, and multiple copies of them already existed, the whole “take them away so nobody will see them” plot falls flatter than week-old soda. Now, if you want to claim Mr. Berger borrowed Bill Clinton’s secret team of \*uber-\*elite ninja death squad Arkansas commandos to remove each and every copy that ever existed, and kill everyone who had seen them, _maybe_ you could get some traction for this theory… if you weren’t laughed out of the room in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/174 "2004-07-25T22:39:35Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Well, how about this.Well gosh, maybe the Clinton administration is a little bit more culpable for the deaths of those who perished in the 9-11 attacks than what the “Ministry of Truth” is portraying. Does that “ministry of truth” include the Republican headed 9/11 commission, which by all accounts has not only seen all the documents in question, but also portrays Clinton as quite a deal MORE pro-active and involved in doing things like raising counterterrorism funding and going afte Al Qaeda, than Republicans would like to admit (having, sadly, pretty much nothing to compare any of that activity to in the Bush administration pre-9/11?) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/175 "2004-07-25T22:48:42Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Does that “ministry of truth” include the Republican headed 9/11 commission, which by all accounts has not only seen all the documents in question, but also portrays Clinton as quite a deal MORE pro-active and involved in doing things like raising counterterrorism funding and going afte Al Qaeda, than Republicans would like to admit (having, sadly, pretty much nothing to compare any of that activity to in the Bush administration pre-9/11?) [linguo the grammar robot] Run-on sentence, needlessly involuted. [/linguo the grammar robot] ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/176 "2004-07-25T22:53:13Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Does that “ministry of truth” include the Republican headed 9/11 commission… Judging from his posts, I would assume it includes anybody to the left of Rush Limbaugh and O’Reilly. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/177 "2004-07-26T02:31:08Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > …Bill Clinton’s secret team of \*uber-\*elite ninja death squad Arkansas commandos… I helped train some of those guys. I even used to be one. They’re not Clinton’s. They’re Frank Broyles’ boys. But Frank doesn’t use 'em too much any more, so he let’s folks borry’em. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/178 "2004-07-26T12:41:28Z")
Come on, guys, be honest. There were voices in the congress that used 9-11 for political gain by inferring that it was all Bush’s fault. Hell, there were even some Democrats saying that Bush knew in advance of the attacks and allowed them to happen so as to enable the enactment of the Department of Homeland Security, with entailing police-state legislation. (Not that it is totally unfeasible, but either party could be just as suspect.) BTW: I ain’t no fan of Bush, the elder or the younger. AFAIAC, they are both globalists, at the expense of the nation. (re: both the Gulf War and the Iraq War) Both wars were driven by “advisors”, as was Clinton’s bombing of Yugoslavia into submission to the dictates of globalism. The Democrats do not provide a legitimate alternative. Quit pretending they do. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/179 "2004-07-26T12:58:29Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Hell, there were even some Democrats saying that Bush knew in advance of the attacks and allowed them to happen so as to enable the enactment of the Department of Homeland Security,… Um, it was the Democrats who initially proposed the formation of the DHS. The Bush administration resisted it for quite a while before finally coming around. So, when it comes to “Democrats saying that Bush … allowed [the attacks] to happen so as to enable the enactment of the [DHS],” I gotta say, “Cite?” Now, whether the creation of the DHS was a good thing or a bad thing is another debate, entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919/180 "2004-07-26T18:52:44Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Um, it was the Democrats who initially proposed the formation of the DHS. The Bush administration resisted it for quite a while before finally coming around. So, when it comes to “Democrats saying that Bush … allowed [the attacks] to happen so as to enable the enactment of the [DHS],” I gotta say, “Cite?” You been waitin’ to say that, ain’t ya? Tell ya what, why don’t you provide a “cite” for your claim that Democrats (as a party initiative) initially proposed the formation of DHS. Do you really need a “cite” to backup my claim that some congressional democrats made the claim that Bush intentionally allowed 9-11 to happen? I didn’t think so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-investigated-for-stealing-terror-memos/255919.md?page=10)