# Sandy Berger to plead guilty on document stealing charge. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172 "2005-04-01T03:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/1 "2005-04-01T03:09:45Z")
[Here’s the link for anyone who wants it.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/31/berger.plea.ap/) I’m posting this in Great Debates because it was a controversial subject in the past, to the point where some folks opined that he’d done nothing wrong at all. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/2 "2005-04-01T03:14:30Z")
Yeah, so he did it. But law against removing classified documents from the Archive is there to prevent bad guys from reading top-secret information. Berger never intended to give anything to any enemy of the country; his crime is roughly as bad as shoplifting a butterfinger from the local 7/11. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/3 "2005-04-01T03:16:44Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > [Here’s the link for anyone who wants it.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/31/berger.plea.ap/) > > I’m posting this in Great Debates because it was a controversial subject in the past, to the point where some folks opined that he’d done nothing wrong at all. It’s a lot cheaper to plead guily to a misdemeanor charge than to pay $50000 for a high-priced defense lawyer unless jail or the maximum fine is involved. Let’s see what kind of sentence was arranged before jumping in with both feet. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/4 "2005-04-01T03:25:48Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > Yeah, so he did it. But law against removing classified documents from the Archive is there to prevent bad guys from reading top-secret information. Berger never intended to give anything to any enemy of the country; his crime is roughly as bad as shoplifting a butterfinger from the local 7/11. I think not. Classified info is actually very serious stuff. Just ask presidential advisor Richard Perle. Ask Larry Franklin. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/5 "2005-04-01T03:29:45Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > [Here’s the link for anyone who wants it.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/31/berger.plea.ap/) > > I’m posting this in Great Debates because it was a controversial subject in the past, to the point where some folks opined that he’d done nothing wrong at all. Given that Berger always acknowledged what he is pleading guilty to right now, I fail to see how anyone “opined” that he’d done nothing wrong at all. As I recall, my feelings were that he screwed up, but that there was nothing particularly nefarious about it. Do you have any examples of the opining you are claiming? How does the material you are posting now change what was known and acknowledged by Berger at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/6 "2005-04-01T03:41:32Z")
“He returned most of the documents, but some still are missing.” I wonder what the missing documents contained? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/7 "2005-04-01T03:53:29Z")
Well, this is sure to degenerate into just another Berger-bashing thread… ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/8 "2005-04-01T03:55:48Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > crime is roughly as bad as shoplifting a butterfinger from the local 7/11. “Mister Berger, as your attorney, I would advise you not to mention this to the judge at the hearing.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/9 "2005-04-01T05:19:42Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Classified info is actually very serious stuff. > Just ask presidential advisor Richard Perle. > Ask Larry Franklin. Ask Robert Novak. [Ask President Bush.](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2003/07/20/2003060178) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/10 "2005-04-01T05:30:07Z")
“Back in the goold old days”, it was very very very very serious. I occasionally had access to classified and secret material (burn detail). My job was to collect the papers, shred them, and put them in the Burn Em Up gadget (a big furnace). A higher ranking sergeant would escort me, and he was armed. His job was to protect the papers until they were destroyed, and to ensure that nothing remained. Any foulup could mean Leavenworth, even it unintentional. Vert serious stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/11 "2005-04-01T06:00:21Z")
Count me in to not understanding the gloating Moto is doing. Nothing he’s pleading to is different from his original statements about what he did (cite for the particular people who claimed that “nothing at all” had been done?). It was the additional nefarious further things that people like Moto accused him of that no one believed. And apparently rightly so, since he wasn’t even charged with any of them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/12 "2005-04-01T06:07:52Z")
The fact remains. Even if it was a simple instant of carelessness, nothing more than a lapse in attention, he very well could have gone to prison. It’s taken that seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/13 "2005-04-01T06:41:14Z")
I’m not gloating. I take no pleasure from this at all. I’m just posting an update to a discussion held some time ago. As to the opinions I claim to have been held, they were there, trust me. > [@RTA](#): > > If a real crime really occurred which was half as serious as you perpetrate it to be, he would be in irons right now. The matter is closed, finito. “No controlling legal authority” is calling what he did a crime, and wishing never made something so. > [@DSeid](#): > > I haven’t read the whole thread, so my apologies if this has already been noted, but, he has been cleared of all wrongdoing, you know. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The OP is being hysterically partisan and lying to boot. There is no cause to characterize Berger as having “hidden” anything and no such accusation has been made againts him. There isn’t even a motive for stealing copies since taking copies would not actually conceal anything. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/14 "2005-04-01T06:48:27Z")
I am no expert. I do recall that the _Washington Post_ some writer mentioned Sandy was sneaking things out crammed into his ‘delicate washables.’ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/15 "2005-04-01T07:11:52Z")
This is a misdemenaor, so in one sense it’s “meh”. But given that the documents pertain to what the Clinton adminstration did to counter terrorism, and that some documents are still missing, this is going to have the taint of coverup attached to it. That’s just an unavoidable consequence of this bonehead mistake. But it’s still small potatoes. We as a country have so many bigger fish to fry than this. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/16 "2005-04-01T12:37:39Z")
Well, in answer to my own question, here’s the new information: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16706-2005Mar31.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16706-2005Mar31.html) > [@](#): > > The terms of Berger’s agreement required him to acknowledge to the Justice Department the circumstances of the episode. Rather than misplacing or unintentionally throwing away three of the five copies he took from the archives, as the former national security adviser earlier maintained, he shredded them with a pair of scissors late one evening at the downtown offices of his international consulting business. Dumbass. There must be some record of what the documents included. It would be good to know what they were and why he didn’t just return them too. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/17 "2005-04-01T13:32:22Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Given that Berger always acknowledged what he is pleading guilty to right now, I fail to see how anyone “opined” that he’d done nothing wrong at all. No, he didn’t. When he got caught, he claimed it was an “honest mistake”. Now he admits he did it deliberately. At the time, he denied doing anything criminal, now he is pleading guilty to a criminal act. _:shrugs:_ As if any of the Usual Suspects would let something as mundane as the facts interfere with the party line. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/18 "2005-04-01T13:38:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As if any of the Usual Suspects would let something as mundane as the facts interfere with the party line. > > Regards, > Shodan Please reread all posts in this thread, particularly the one RIGHT BEFORE your very own. However, don’t let that get in the way of your knee-jerk party line bluster yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/19 "2005-04-01T13:47:38Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Please reread all posts in this thread, particularly the one RIGHT BEFORE your very own. However, don’t let that get in the way of your knee-jerk party line bluster yourself. You’re right, you did correct yourself. My bad. Sandy Berger is indeed a lying scumbag. Of course, as a member of the Clinton administration, that statement is probably redundant, but still, kudos to you for 'fessing up. 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172/20 "2005-04-01T15:08:50Z")
Absitively and posolutely, a “lying scumbag”! It is refreshing to see such fair and balanced candor here on the boards, straight from the shoulder, call 'em like you see 'em! Just for calibration, you know, get some sort of standard set, just limn for us exactly how many American servicemen are dead and/or wounded due to Mr. Berger’s disinformation. Or precisely to what extent America’s international standing has been compromised by the dreadful Mr. Berger. You know, kind of give us something to compare with, in case we want to see how he stacks up against…oh, I dunno…some other polilticos. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-berger-to-plead-guilty-on-document-stealing-charge/297172.md?page=2)