# Sandy Hook lawsuits : could they be ended instantly in a settlement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 15, 2015, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035 "2015-03-15T08:15:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/41 "2015-03-17T17:37:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Friend of mine’s brother was in a high school class in 1978 when some student came in and shot another student with a sawed off shotgun - in 1978. Google finds a fairlydetailed description: > > [When school shootings were unthinkable – Winnipeg Free Press](http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/when-school-shootings-were-unthinkable-187569241.html) > > The death toll stopped at 1 because the sawed-off shotgun jammed. Most people were totally unaware of what had actually happened at the time. No lockdown, back to class next day… as the article says, Columbine changed everything much later. But… disturbed impulsive teenagers with difficulty foreseeing the consequences of their actions is by no means a new phenomenon. [This woman I knew shot a guy in Sunday School in Barnwell County, SC](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchroniclingamerica.loc.gov%2Flccn%2Fsn86063756%2F1886-07-08%2Fed-1%2Fseq-1.pdf&ei=n2QIVf69CYmXgwTdg4S4Bw&usg=AFQjCNFCZRGjGIas4SDZtmljayYdoDL-Dw&bvm=bv.88198703,d.eXY&cad=rja). She said he had been telling telling slanderous untruths, but I heard the dirt on her was accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/42 "2015-03-17T20:31:55Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think most schools do have lockdown drills nowadays. Lockdown drills are not proper procedure for an active shooter. They are procedure IF you are unable to escape the building and IF the shooter does not enter the room. All I know is experts in the field (and you are not an expert and I am not an expert but I have been trained by one) ALL advocate training students and staff on Flee, Hide, Fight so I will assume they are correct and you are not unless you have some credentials I am not aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/43 "2015-03-17T20:42:24Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > But the training isn’t necessarily there to prevent or reduce the severity of an incident. The training’s there to _prevent getting sued_ after an incident for not having any training. Really? So if the students/staff escaped out of the windows like they should have once the shooting started, I believe the total school victims would have been three adults. Are you saying that is as severe as twenty-six adults and children? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/44 "2015-03-17T21:23:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > All I know is experts in the field (and you are not an expert and I am not an expert but I have been trained by one) ALL advocate training students and staff on Flee, Hide, Fight so I will assume they are correct and you are not unless you have some credentials I am not aware of. I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night (not really). So that trumps your “I was trained by an expert.” ---
**Author:** ![desertmonk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@desertmonk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/desertmonk)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/45 "2015-03-17T21:49:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night (not really). So that trumps your “I was trained by an expert.” Here’s a fairly credible cite that trumps your snark. [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cirg/active-shooter-and-mass-casualty-incidents/run-hide-fight-video#disablemobile](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cirg/active-shooter-and-mass-casualty-incidents/run-hide-fight-video#disablemobile) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/46 "2015-03-17T22:18:21Z")
FYI, the final report of the state Sandy Hook Advisory Committee is [here](http://www.shac.ct.gov/SHAC_Final_Report_3-6-2015.pdf) (warning: long PDF). They do suggest further training in schools to prepare for an active shooter incident, but note that this one of many natural or man-made disasters that could occur and that the schools need to prepare more broadly. They note, “Nine children were able to escape from the classroom [room 10] and survived, either because A.L. stopped shooting in order to reload or because his weapon jammed.” So the students did flee, when it was possible. And note that the report says, “The testimony and other evidence presented to the Commission reveals that there has never been an event in which an active shooter breached a locked classroom door.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/47 "2015-03-18T13:52:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > They note, “Nine children were able to escape from the classroom [room 10] and survived, either because A.L. stopped shooting in order to reload or because his weapon jammed.” So the students did flee, **when it was possible**. So the classrooms where the victims were executed did not have windows to the outside and objects in the room to break said windows with? And could said windows be broken with said objects before Lanza entered the room? If so then no, they did not flee when it was possible, they hid, did not fight and got murdered for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/48 "2015-03-18T14:02:16Z")
Yes, they didn’t flee. But remember that this was a classroom of perhaps twenty six- or seven-year-old children and their teacher, all of whom were terrified. So what they might have done is easy to criticize at a distance. FYI, my elementary school (about an hour southeast of Sandy Hook Elementary) had doors from each classroom leading directly outside. It was built, I think, in the 1960s and I attended it in the late 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/49 "2015-03-18T14:18:29Z")
And actually, reviewing the timeline, the report said he entered the school just before 9:30am and shot himself by about 9:40am. Also, I’m guessing that the teacher was not a large woman and most of the furniture in Room 10 consisted of chairs and desks sized for first-graders. It’s possible that no, the teacher would not have been able to smash a window in time to save the students. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/50 "2015-03-18T14:46:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > … > “The testimony and other evidence presented to the Commission reveals that there has never been an event in which an active shooter breached a locked classroom door.” I don’t know about nowadays, but generally I recall school doors, even internal doors, are pretty solid metal or solid wood doors. The frame is typically thick metal or solid wood. A simple precaution would be to add the plastic shatter-proofing on the windows on each door, although some have the wire embedded in the windows too. But yes, it’s not trivial to breach one of those doors. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/51 "2015-03-18T15:09:53Z")
I’m pretty sure that the solidness of school (and other public building) doors is for fireproofing. But it also helps make a decent barrier against an active shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/52 "2015-03-18T18:57:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Yes, they didn’t flee. But remember that this was a classroom of perhaps twenty six- or seven-year-old children and their teacher, all of whom were terrified. So what they might have done is easy to criticize at a distance. Change “terrified” to “untrained”. And let me make this clear, I am not necessarily blaming the teachers or the students. I am blaming the school and district administration that did not train their teachers except the incorrect “cower in a locked room and if the shooter comes in, cower some more until you are shot in the face.” And for your earlier implications that training is ineffective, you may want to read about Rick Rescorla. ---
**Author:** ![Enigma42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/87869e/32.png) [@Enigma42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enigma42)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/53 "2015-03-18T20:43:36Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Mythoughts precisely. “Active shooter” training in elementary schools is simply force feeding fear into kids and schools. > > Fearful paranoid adults are helpful to some political agendas. Just not any that civilized people ought to support. Respectfully, I’m not sure I agree. There is a limit, of course, to how much fear and paranoia we should expose our children too. But we still regularly conduct fire drills, tornado drills, and earthquake drills (in appropriate geographical regions) in schools. How many children have been killed by those things compared to an ‘active shooter’? The National Fire Protection Association has a [list of school fires with more than 10 fatalities](http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-by-property-type/educational/school-fires-with-10-or-more-deaths). The most recent on the list is from December 1, 1958. [This report](http://www.maine.gov/doe/security/resources/Relative_Risks_of_Death_in_US_K-12_Schools.pdf) by Stephen Satterly breaks down deaths at school by category from 1998-2012. His report is skeptical and urges caution about overemphasizing the dangers of active shooter incidents. Even so fires and earthquakes don’t even make the list, tornados and other wind events make up 2% while active shooter situations make up 4-5% of deaths from that period. So the actual risk of death from an active shooter events would appear to be roughly double the risk from a tornado. Note that the highest risk category is transportation, while the second highest risk is homicide. Active shooter events are subsets of homicide, but some aspects of the training might apply to lowering risk of other types of homicide as well. Should we eliminate tornado drills and fire drills then? Drills and training are part of the reason, along with building codes and better technology, that the risk of death in those events is relatively low. Likewise, appropriate training and drills may further reduce the risk of death from an active shooter scenario. My daughter’s school is using the [ALICE protocol](http://www.alicetraining.com/) and while I’m a bit unsure about certain aspects of it, it sounds a lot better to me than what happened at Columbine or Newtown. My daughter has come home after the drills and told us about them and shown no more signs of fear than after other drills. They make it a bit of a game for the smaller kids, while the staff and teachers have done some pretty intense and serious training. Active shooter incidents can be over in mere minutes, so passively waiting for police response doesn’t look like a good option. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/54 "2015-03-18T20:50:22Z")
> [@Enigma42](#): > > Respectfully, I’m not sure I agree. There is a limit, of course, to how much fear and paranoia we should expose our children too. But we still regularly conduct fire drills, tornado drills, and earthquake drills (in appropriate geographical regions) in schools. How many children have been killed by those things compared to an ‘active shooter’? This is the EXACT example Mrs Cad (nationally certified in physical security, certificate of fitness for fire-life safety) used. We teach fire/tornado/earthquake drills and we don’t worry that kids can’t handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/55 "2015-03-18T21:09:45Z")
I’m kind of skeptical how much these drills can help. Active shooters aren’t predictable robots, they are disturbed human beings armed with rifles and generally more ammo than they fire during their rampage. Could a shooter not take out a rush of elementary school kids trying to tackle him? If they all try to escape, could he not gun them down out in the open? I used to think the same thing about the security guards armed with 9mm handguns that would be guarding a metal detector that was added to some high schools, post Columbine. If the 2 columbine kids had faced a barrier like that, they could have shot right through the vests the guards were wearing and taken them out. In theory. Or, if active shooters were…responsive in their murder-spree planning, they could simply attack wherever the defenses are not. Modern American society has large, vulnerable crowds everywhere, all the time, somewhere, with no to minimal security. Ultimately, active shooter training and guards is not a way to save lives. It probably reduces liability for future lawsuits (“we tried, but the active shooter had too much rifle ammo”) and it may cause active shooters to attack somewhere else, sort of how The Club doesn’t prevent auto thefts, it just encourages thieves to steal the car next to yours. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/56 "2015-03-19T00:15:47Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > I’m kind of skeptical how much these drills can help. Active shooters aren’t predictable robots, they are disturbed human beings armed with rifles and generally more ammo than they fire during their rampage. Could a shooter not take out a rush of elementary school kids trying to tackle him? > > If they all try to escape, could he not gun them down out in the open? If he was inside, he wouldn’t be able to shoot people outside. And the Fight stae assumes that you are in a situation where you are already dead. If you fight back then MAYBE you have a chance - like giving CPR. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035/57 "2015-03-19T02:03:00Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Ok, so I read this [article](http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/14/us/connecticut-sandy-hook-lawsuits/index.html). To summarize, Adam Lanza’s mom is being sued. > > Her estate has at least a million bucks (insurance on the house). Let’s say for the sake of argument her estate is a million bucks, even. > > The estate administrator, Samuel Starks, presumably has only a fiduciary duty to protect the money - he has no stake in the fight. > > A reasonable person could conclude that were this case to go to a jury trial, the emotional nature of the case means there is no real chance of the plaintiffs not winning. > > However, a jury trial costs money. The plaintiff’s attorneys have to be paid, and the estate will have to be defended using funds from itself. > > So, couldn’t Samuel Starks go to a negotiation and say “yes, you’re gonna win. However, if you go to trial, it’s going to cost you $100k in legal fees, and then I’m going to spend $100k in legal fees from the estate itself to defend. That leaves you only 800k you can even potentially take. So how about we settle for 850, and I’ll give the $150k difference to the heirs.” > > Both parties come out ahead. Samuel Starks has 150k to give to the heirs of the estate, fulfilling his fudiciary duty, and the plaintiffs get all of the money they were ever going to get plus 50k. (it’s irrelevant if the jury award a billion bucks, there is only 1 million at stake regardless) The following assumes the vast bulk of what can be recovered from the estate is liability insurance on the mom’s house. Assuming that is true the OP has a number of incorrect assumptions. The $1M potential award would not be reduced by lawyer fees. The insurance company owes the estate the right of defense. This is true even if there the suit is baseless. There are two difference between having 25K in liability coverage and having 1M in coverage. Assume you are sued for $1M. The first difference is the quality and experience of the insurance company lawyer. Having a mill on the hook get you a member of the varsity. Next the estate administrator and the heirs have zero say over any settlement. The decision to settle lies strictly with the insurance company. This is the second difference between 25K and 1M in liability insurance is if you have 25K in coverage the insurance will cut a check so they don’t have to defend against a 1M suit. The only exception to this is professional liability (malpractice) insurance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-lawsuits-could-they-be-ended-instantly-in-a-settlement/715035.md?page=2)