# Sandy Hook Parents about to sue AR-15 manufacturer... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143 "2014-12-13T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/41 "2014-12-14T18:10:54Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > No, but it’s fairly irrelevant argument by association. “If you have the right to say anything you want, I have the right to own any weapon I like” is pretty nonsensical. Also representative of the absurdity of most absolutist pro-gun arguments. > > Sorry, JLA. The right to speak is not the same as the right to own weapons powerful enough to drop an entire squad of armored cops. And there is absolutely no conceivable purpose to civilians owning weapons that can deliver 20, 30 or more shots in a matter of seconds. Not hunting. Not target shooting. And not any but the most extreme and contrived defense situations. As mentioned, these military clones are pretty underpowered by comparison. Also, for a situation where someone (or more than one) is approaching your house after dark, it’s not unreasonable to want extra ammunition. Handguns take a hell of a lot of practice to become proficient, and racking a shotgun slide at dark can be difficult in certain spaces. That might be an extreme self-defense example, but so are mass shootings. Unless it can be shown that a restriction on freedom is necessary and sufficient to eliminate the harm posed, then I am not convinced it is needed. Plus, slippery slope. If all civilian ownership of guns were banned tomorrow, I’m guessing that you wouldn’t have much of a problem with it. Many on this board have stated that they would be in favor of an outright ban. Until the air is clear that nobody is actually proposing that, I’m not comforted by the assurance that these are “sensible measures” that will be the end of the restrictions. The other side will come back next year and want more. Cite? This country banned (mostly) machine guns, then mail order guns, then the Brady Bill, then assault weapons ban, then there was talk of handgun safety cards. That’s when the NRA really made a stand and said enough was enough. We had already accepted reasonable regulations, but they just kept becoming more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/42 "2014-12-14T18:11:36Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > That’s disingenuous. > > The bigger question, which this lawsuit really doesn’t (and can’t) address, is why people are manufacturing and purchasing weapons that are useless for sport, and are only designed for hunting other people. Another empty assertion stated as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/43 "2014-12-14T18:16:55Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Plus, slippery slope. If all civilian ownership of guns were banned tomorrow, I’m guessing that you wouldn’t have much of a problem with it. Wrong. Your slope, you slipped on it. 🙂 The arguments for high-power, high-ROF weapons in general civilian hands are generally so nonsensical as to have been penned by the love child of John Wayne and Lewis Carroll, though. Enough, IMHO; we have enough 2Am arguments. The consensus here seems to be that this is an absurd and nearly pointless lawsuit (or would be; it hasn’t been filed or even formally announced yet, AFAIK) intended more for publicity and back-channel suppression than any of its stated aims. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/44 "2014-12-14T18:32:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I enjoy the way you state that as if it were some kind of established fact rather than just one of your favorite sound bytes to repeat in every gun thread. Carry on. Yikes! Look at what you just did! You made a statement just as if it were fact. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/45 "2014-12-14T18:59:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. My child was murdered. Let me do something to make you NOT have sympathy for me. They’ve already been variously accused of collaborating in the murder of their children, in faking their children death’s and that their children never existed in the first place. I doubt any of them are foolish enough at this point to expect anything resembling sympathy under any circumstances from the pro-gun crowd. Who have made it very clear that they consider guns far more important than children, or adults for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/46 "2014-12-14T19:04:17Z")
I’m not necessarily advocating banning anything. If anything, the State should be disarmed first. “From Oakland/ to Greece/ Disarm the/ Po-lice!” It’s a broader question of why Americans feel so afraid of one another (among other things) that they feel the necessity to arm themselves so heavily. Crime is down across the Western world, including countries with very few firearms, as well as places like Canada, Norway, and Switzerland, among others, where sporting weapons are fairly common. In other words, I’m questioning the gun culture and the culture of fear, not necessarily the legality of firearms. Also, when people fought with swords, there were no innocent bystanders. One had to be man or woman enough to stand toe-to-toe with one’s opponent. That’s neither here nor there. About sporting weapons, is it really allowed/possible to take multiple shots at sporting clays and such? Don’t the animals run away at the first sound of a shot? Also, why are people shooting animals for fun in the first place? Nobody needs to eat meat, so that argument is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Zephyranth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f1d935/32.png) [@Zephyranth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyranth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/47 "2014-12-14T19:07:19Z")
I still don’t understand why this is being rolled into the Newtown deadline. Plaintiffs have another full year to decide to sue Bushmaster. It is the deadline to sue Newtown that is up today. That cannot be coincidence. It may indeed be that families plan to announce that they’re suing Bushmaster, but a careful read of the original Guardian article shows that no family member or Bushmaster spokesperson confirmed that allegation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/48 "2014-12-14T19:15:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They’ve already been variously accused of collaborating in the murder of their children, in faking their children death’s and that their children never existed in the first place. I doubt any of them are foolish enough at this point to expect anything resembling sympathy under any circumstances from the pro-gun crowd. What made you think I was referring to the “pro-gun crowd”? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/49 "2014-12-14T19:29:06Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yikes! Look at what you just did! You made a statement just as if it were fact. :rolleyes: It was the roll-eyes that really sold that. Why one of the HCI-type organizatiions doesn’t have you on the payroll is a puzzlement. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/50 "2014-12-14T21:08:30Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It was the roll-eyes that really sold that. Why one of the HCI-type organizatiions doesn’t have you on the payroll is a puzzlement. Sure. I’ll reiterate for you. When you assert an opinion that someone else is asserting an opinion, you’re contributing absolutely nothing to a discussion. A roll-eyes smilie actually contributes well more to the discussion than what you posted. ---
**Author:** ![Zephyranth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f1d935/32.png) [@Zephyranth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyranth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/51 "2014-12-14T21:55:01Z")
There is another take on the situation altogether: “The shooter was not born a mass murderer, nor did his mental issues predicate disaster. Seemingly, he was cultivated into a killer by his environment.” (Scarlett Lewis, Schools Miss the Mark, NY Post, November 22, 2014). ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/52 "2014-12-14T22:37:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sure. I’ll reiterate for you. When you assert an opinion that someone else is asserting an opinion, you’re contributing absolutely nothing to a discussion. A roll-eyes smilie actually contributes well more to the discussion than what you posted. That’s it! That’s the C above high C note of outraged superiority that proclaims “this one is ready for the big show!” You definitely add value to every gun thread in which you participate. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/53 "2014-12-14T22:52:02Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > That’s it! That’s the C above high C note of outraged superiority that proclaims “this one is ready for the big show!” You definitely add value to every gun thread in which you participate. Do you intend to contribute any content to the thread, or just to make meaningless comments obsessing about me? I’d suggest you take the latter to the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/54 "2014-12-15T02:22:10Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Here’s the (likely, IMHO) attempt: > > The law says that you cannot sue a gun manufacturer for bad things that happens with the guns it sells. The Plaintiffs will go out of their way to say that they are not doing this, nosiree! > > They will sue for some form of negligence or negligent entrustment. Look at it this way. If Bushmaster wanted, they could impose a condition on their distributors that they must only sell Bushmasters to licensed dealers who require their customers to go through safety training, “understanding mental illness” training on how to see the signs of a disturbed individual, etc. etc. Do we agree with that? Any manufacturer can, if they desire, impose additional steps on their distributors, agreed? > > Now, we start from the legal premise that negligence is failing to take a step that a “reasonably prudent person” would take to prevent harm. The argument would be that in selling a product that can kill 20 school children in a matter of minutes that a reasonably prudent gun manufacturer who sells these “weapons of war” would take any or all of the above steps. Bushmaster failed to do this, therefore it is negligent and/or negligently entrusted their guns to distributors who sold to any mom and pop gun store without “safety protocols”, and are therefore responsible for the deaths of the children. > > Wait, you say, isn’t Lanza ultimately responsible for the deaths and whatever Bushmaster did many steps removed from the killings? (in legal terms, the proximate cause) The Plaintiffs will argue that proximate cause is a question for the jury and that we can engage in voluminous discovery and put it in front of 12 fair and impartial soccer moms near Newtown, CT who make Sarah Brady look like Ted Nugent. > > The plaintiffs will go to pains to distinguish Bushmaster’s conduct from other manufacturers and try to pigeonhole their argument so that it meanders through the law and gets to a jury. > > I don’t think that they have a very good chance getting it through because judges aren’t stupid. But with a lot of lawyers out there having student loan debts to pay off, there are many who would take this case to try to get past a motion to dismiss, past summary judgment, so that it either gets to a jury (who would return $bajillions) or force the manufacturers into a lucrative settlement. Thanks for explaining this in a way that I can understand. It seems to me that the the problem, if the case gets past a grand jury, is the ‘reasonably prudent person’. In this case, could Bushmaster as the defendant ask for a bench trial instead of a jury trial? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/55 "2014-12-15T14:03:50Z")
It seems that the found a way to spend that 2M per family, frivolous lawsuits … ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/56 "2014-12-15T16:23:58Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > It’s a broader question of why Americans feel so afraid of one another (among other things) that they feel the necessity to arm themselves so heavily. Crime is down across the Western world, including countries with very few firearms, as well as places like Canada, Norway, and Switzerland, among others, where sporting weapons are fairly common. In other words, I’m questioning the gun culture and the culture of fear, not necessarily the legality of firearms. False premise. I own several firearms. None of them were purchased for the primary purpose of self-defense, they are used for hunting or target shooting. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Also, when people fought with swords, there were no innocent bystanders. One had to be man or woman enough to stand toe-to-toe with one’s opponent. That’s neither here nor there. Agreed, this comment is valueless. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > About sporting weapons, is it really allowed/possible to take multiple shots at sporting clays and such? Don’t the animals run away at the first sound of a shot? Sporting clays simulates hunting birds and occasionally, rabbits. It is completely normal to have the opportunity to fire multiple times at such game. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Also, why are people shooting animals for fun in the first place? Nobody needs to eat meat, so that argument is irrelevant. I’m not going to bother. You’re [not even wrong.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/57 "2014-12-15T16:32:26Z")
Regardless of the gun involved, would the gun manufacturer be sued anyway? So, a bolt-action rifle manufacturer would get sued, just like an AR-15 manufacturer? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/58 "2014-12-15T16:47:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Regardless of the gun involved, would the gun manufacturer be sued anyway? > > So, a bolt-action rifle manufacturer would get sued, just like an AR-15 manufacturer? Why don’t you go look up mass shootings involving bolt action rifles, see if the manufacturer was sued and report back to us? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/59 "2014-12-15T17:04:54Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > Thanks for explaining this in a way that I can understand. > It seems to me that the the problem, if the case gets past a grand jury, is the ‘reasonably prudent person’. In this case, could Bushmaster as the defendant ask for a bench trial instead of a jury trial? First: no grand jury. A grand jury is impaneled to assess cases for the requisite probable cause prior to a criminal trial by a petit jury. The potential case here would be a civil trial. Civil law isn’t my specialty, but I believe that in a civil case a jury trial is equally the right of both plaintiff and defendant, so both would have to waive a jury if the issue were tried to the bench. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/60 "2014-12-15T17:09:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why don’t you go look up mass shootings involving bolt action rifles, see if the manufacturer was sued and report back to us? Every plaintiff is different in emotions, personality, etc. Just because Plaintiff A didn’t sue a bolt action rifle manufacturer, doesn’t mean Plaintiff B wouldn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143.md?page=4)