# Sandy Hook Parents about to sue AR-15 manufacturer... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143 "2014-12-13T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/141 "2014-12-18T01:01:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s even worse that that. There were only about 11,000 gun related _homicides_ last year. ( **I am not so concerned with suicides** ). > > Second Hand Smoke kills 40,000\>50000 non smokers a year. About 1000 of which are infants. You should be. Removal of a method for suicide, all things being equal, does not mean that suicidal people will simply substitute another method. One factor in suicide rates (though not the only factor) is the availability of highly lethal methods. When said methods are less present, or less used for whatever reason, then suicides decrease, if all other factors stay the same. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/142 "2014-12-18T01:34:58Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Because I so rarely get to point out factual errors in your post - [Bushmaster actually kicked in $550,000.](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/09/10/gun_maker_and_dealer_settle_in_dc_sniper_shootings_lawsuit/) Correction noted! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/143 "2014-12-18T01:38:36Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > You should be. Removal of a method for suicide, all things being equal, does not mean that suicidal people will simply substitute another method. One factor in suicide rates (though not the only factor) is the availability of highly lethal methods. When said methods are less present, or less used for whatever reason, then suicides decrease, if all other factors stay the same. A cheap gun costs $250. A canister of helium costs $25 and leaves a nice corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/144 "2014-12-18T02:04:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A cheap gun costs $250. A canister of helium costs $25 and leaves a nice corpse. Admittedly not too many people keep a canister of helium around. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/145 "2014-12-18T02:19:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A cheap gun costs $250. A canister of helium costs $25 and leaves a nice corpse. And they get to go out on a high note. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/146 "2014-12-18T03:36:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Second Hand Smoke kills 40,000\>50000 non smokers a year. About 1000 of which are infants. These outdated numbers are quite soft compared to those on gunshot deaths. The infant statistic is, I believe, from back when the overall SIDS rate (higher with mothers who smoke) was maybe three times what it is today, and smoking rates were far higher as well. But I’m all for linking tobacco with gun ownership as major menaces to public health. We need similar public health measures against guns as against smoking, such as warnings on gun packaging about the much higher violent death rate of gun owners. > [@DrDeth](#): > > _“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”_ I agree with Benjamin Franklin that gun ownership doesn’t confer safety.\* And I agree that banning guns isn’t right for America. If brought back to life today, don’t be so sure that gentleman would be on your side here. * * * - Context is here: [http://franklinpapers.org/franklin/framedVolumes.jsp?vol=6&page=238a](http://franklinpapers.org/franklin/framedVolumes.jsp?vol=6&page=238a) Franklin may have meant that gun ownership was a safety plus on the frontier, but not generally. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/147 "2014-12-18T03:54:20Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Admittedly not too many people keep a canister of helium around. yes but I think you missed my point. it’s far easier and cheaper to get helium. Or any gas actually works. Anything that displaces oxygen. yes the existence of a gun makes it a one-shot deal if someone is suicidal but so does a car or heroin. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/148 "2014-12-18T08:02:52Z")
Since when has a helium tank cost $25? The price of helium is going up up up, thanks to the government finally getting to the end of selling off its reserve. Access to implements for suicide _is_ a factor in suicide rate. I’m sure that many people on this board will be familiar with the [decline in suicide rates](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC478945/pdf/brjprevsmed00022-0018.pdf)in the UK when the gas started to have much less CO. It may well be that someone who has neither is more likely to buy gas than a gun (although I won’t accept it without proof), but someone who does have access to a firearm is probably more likely to kill themself than someone who doesn’t. But anyways, this is far afield. In this country, we have generally held that if a product is legal to sell, then you can’t successfully sue someone for selling that product (provided it is not defective in some way). For firearms, this principle is codified. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/149 "2014-12-18T14:33:42Z")
So I begin to sense what the strategy is here. [Walter Olsen](http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/03/six-myths-about-the-law-that-bans-gun-lawsuits.php) points out: > [@](#): > > A Washington Post report in January claimed the law poses “unexpected hurdles” to victims of recent mass shootings, whose lawyers are supposedly “surprised” at its pre-emptive effect. At the time Congress passed the law, the Post concedes, big-city mayors had filed a wave of lawsuits on novel theories demanding (for example) that courts begin treating gun sales as a “public nuisance” . “But over the past eight years, the legal shield has increasingly been used to block a different stripe of legal action.” The Post’s implication that Congress intended to restrict only municipal suits, and not tort suits on behalf of individuals, is false. Lawmakers debated the question and chose to include both. One reason is that anti-gun strategists were actively employing individual as well as municipal suits in their nearly successful effort to bury gun makers under the costs of legal defense. An editorial complaining that the law banned both kinds of suits appeared on June 2, 2005 in (yes) the Washington Post. So knowing that the suit is absolutely barred by the PLCAA, I suspect that this is simply the opening move. When the suit is dismissed, there will be editorials and social media blitzes about what an unexpected result this is and how the law was never intended to reach this far. It’s a strategy to weaken support for the law. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/150 "2014-12-18T14:36:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s a strategy to weaken support for the law. It may be, but if so it is a really mistimed strategy, considering that they are launching it at the time the Congress is the most pro-2nd-amendment in decades. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/151 "2014-12-18T15:33:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It may be, but if so it is a really mistimed strategy, considering that they are launching it at the time the Congress is the most pro-2nd-amendment in decades. No choice: the two-year limit to file suit in Connecticut expired over the weekend. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/152 "2014-12-18T16:54:41Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > You should be. Removal of a method for suicide, all things being equal, does not mean that suicidal people will simply substitute another method. One factor in suicide rates (though not the only factor) is the availability of highly lethal methods. When said methods are less present, or less used for whatever reason, then suicides decrease, if all other factors stay the same. I am not very concerned as I believe suicide is a _choice_ each of us may make. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/153 "2014-12-18T16:59:04Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > These outdated numbers are quite soft compared to those on gunshot deaths. The infant statistic is, I believe, from back when the overall SIDS rate (higher with mothers who smoke) was maybe three times what it is today, and smoking rates were far higher as well. [http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data\_statistics/fact\_sheets/secondhand\_smoke/general\_facts/](http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/general_facts/) > **[Secondhand Smoke Kills 42,000 Nonsmokers a Year in US](https://www.livescience.com/23562-secondhand-smoke-kills-nonsmokders.html)** > > UCSF researchers calculate that 42,000 Americans die yearly from secondhand smoke, the first study based on blood levels of a tobacco toxin. _More than 42,000 people a year, including 900 infants, according to a new, thorough analysis of secondhand smoke deaths by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco._ > **[Health Effects of Secondhand Smoke](https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effects/secondhand-smoke)** > > Secondhand smoke is a serious health hazard causing more than 41,000 deaths per year. It can cause or make worse a wide range of damaging health effects in children and adults, including lung cancer, Hardly outdated. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/154 "2014-12-18T17:22:52Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > …I agree with Benjamin Franklin that gun ownership doesn’t confer safety.\* And I agree that banning guns isn’t right for America. If brought back to life today, don’t be so sure that gentleman would be on your side here. > > * * * > > - Context is here: > > [http://franklinpapers.org/franklin/framedVolumes.jsp?vol=6&page=238a](http://franklinpapers.org/franklin/framedVolumes.jsp?vol=6&page=238a) > > Franklin may have meant that gun ownership was a safety plus on the frontier, but not generally. How can you be sure that zombie Benjamin Franklin would be on your side? Franklin was known as an independent thinker who supported the right to self-defense. Plus, you have to consider that he may be distracted by internet porn. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/155 "2014-12-18T17:32:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. My child was murdered. Let me do something to make you NOT have sympathy for me. +1 ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/156 "2014-12-19T01:15:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > More than 42,000 people a year, including 900 infants, according to a new, thorough analysis of secondhand smoke deaths by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco.\* > [Health Effects of Secondhand Smoke | American Lung Association](http://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/about-smoking/health-effects/secondhand-smoke.html) > > Hardly outdated. Following your links, your stats are mostly based on 2006. That’s closer to the present than I would have thought, so I’ll concede this point. Tobacco and firearms are big public health problems best addressed by public health measures and regulation rather than bans. > [@doorhinge](#): > > How can you be sure that zombie Benjamin Franklin would be on your side? Franklin was known as an independent thinker who supported the right to self-defense. Plus, you have to consider that he may be distracted by internet porn. You’ve noticed a relationship between internet porn consumption and firearms-friendliness, have you? Of course I can’t be sure where Franklin would stand. But looking at the context of the famous quote, he was on the side of these who blamed the frontiersmen for poisoning their relationship with the Indians. The advocacy of arming the frontier settlers, or at least of funds for armed men to protect them, was in the context of making a concession to a governor who wanted a stronger military posture. I think its pretty clear from my earlier link that the 1755 Franklin wasn’t siding with the wingers. And as he got older, he only became closer in his views to a modern liberal: [http://www.wampumchronicles.com/benfranklin.html](http://www.wampumchronicles.com/benfranklin.html) Is it possible that he would today be against the FoxNews side on anything and everything except guns? Sure, a lot is possible. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/157 "2014-12-19T02:35:25Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > …You’ve noticed a relationship between internet porn consumption and firearms-friendliness, have you? > > Of course I can’t be sure where Franklin would stand… (post shortened) What is well known is that Ol’ Ben really liked the ladies. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/158 "2014-12-19T15:15:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What is well known is that Ol’ Ben really liked the ladies. While well known, it may not be true to the extent widely believed. From [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2522/whats-the-true-story-on-benjamin-franklin): > [@](#): > > … let’s face it, the one thing everyone thinks they know about Ben is that he was a rake. Was he? Probably not. A legendary self-publicist, Franklin liked to give the impression he was a great womanizer, but he was in his 70s and troubled by gout while serving as an envoy to France, alleged scene of his most celebrated conquests. While he was charming and popular with the ladies, and it’s not beyond belief that he got physical with a few of them (if women find Jack Nicholson sexy, anything’s possible), there’s little evidence of any Casanova-like proclivities. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/159 "2014-12-19T16:24:49Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > While well known, it may not be true to the extent widely believed. From [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2522/whats-the-true-story-on-benjamin-franklin): Wouldn’t that make it even more likely that Ol’ Ben would be interested in internet porn? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143/160 "2014-12-19T17:00:12Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Following your links, your stats are mostly based on 2006. That’s closer to the present than I would have thought, so I’ll concede this point. “U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The Health Consequences of Smoking—50 Years of Progress: A Report of the Surgeon General. Atlanta: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, Office on Smoking and Health, **2014** [accessed 2014 Apr 11].” Ok, we’re both on the same page, tho. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sandy-hook-parents-about-to-sue-ar-15-manufacturer/707143.md?page=9)