# Sang or Sung?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 9, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211 "2017-05-09T18:19:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/1 "2017-05-09T18:19:12Z")
I was doing a crossword puzzle when a clue suggested Sang or Sung and sometimes I get it wrong.
How do I know which to use? They’re both past tense aren’t they?
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### Author:  [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/2 "2017-05-09T18:22:33Z")
copied from elsewhere
“Sang” is simple past: “She sang the national anthem at the football game yesterday.”
“Sung” is past participle, requiring an auxiliary verb: “She has sung the national anthem at many sporting events throughout the greater Fargo area.”
Simple past usually describes a completed action that happened one time, while past participle describes a condition or an action that happened several times.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/3 "2017-05-09T18:47:17Z")
I believe there are some dialects where “He sung that song yesterday” is considered OK, but those are non-standard English dialects. Otherwise, **Weisshund** got it right.
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### Author:  [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/4 "2017-05-09T19:25:00Z")
> [@Weisshund](#):
>
> Simple past usually describes a completed action that happened one time, while past participle describes a condition or an action that happened several times.
I would expand this a bit. The past participle by itself does not express a tense in English – it needs to be combined with an auxiliary verb, and the tense expressed depends on which auxiliary is used. Used with “have” it is the [present perfect tense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_perfect), expressing a past event which is complete but has some relation to the present: “I have sung that song many times.” Used with “had” it is the [past perfect or pluperfect tense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluperfect), expressing a past event that is earlier than some other past event: “I had already sung that song before he arrived.” With “will have”, it is the [future perfect tense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_perfect#English), expressing an event which will occur in the future before some other future event: “I will have sung that song before he arrives.” There are some other uses of the past participle, such as an adjective phrase (“The song sung by the choir was beautiful.”) or a adverbial phrase (“Sung quietly, the song could not be heard.”).
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### Author:  [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/5 "2017-05-09T19:40:50Z")
I guess the clue was pretty vague: “Squealed to the cops.”
I said Sang and it was Sung.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/6 "2017-05-09T19:46:26Z")
In names, it’s interesting that
Singh is Indian
Sang is most often Korean
Song (once transliterated Sung) is common in Chinese
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### Author:  [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/7 "2017-05-09T19:48:47Z")
I agree, the clue is ambiguous. Since the clue is in simple past tense, I’d say “sang” is a better answer than “sung”. In fact (coincidentally?), the clue “squealed” was [apparently used in the NY Times crossword on April 2, 2017](http://newyorktimescrossword.net/squealed/), and the answer was “sang”.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/8 "2017-05-09T19:51:55Z")
I agree, if they wanted Sung as the answer, they should have said, “had squealed to the cops”
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/9 "2017-05-09T21:03:58Z")
> [@Riemann](#):
>
> In names, it’s interesting that
> Singh is Indian
> Sang is most often Korean
> Song (once transliterated Sung) is common in Chinese
Don’t forget the Supreme Leader Kim Il-sung!
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### Author:  [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/10 "2017-05-09T21:11:37Z")
Thanks guys, I knew I read the clue right. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/11 "2017-05-10T01:19:52Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#):
>
> I agree, if they wanted Sung as the answer, they should have said, “had squealed to the cops”
But then the answer would be HAD SUNG.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/12 "2017-05-10T01:42:57Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> But then the answer would be HAD SUNG.
Agreed. The clue was ambiguous, but not unfairly so.
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### Author:  [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/13 "2017-05-10T01:58:42Z")
I guess it’s one of those “Gotcha!” :smack:
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/14 "2017-05-10T12:52:50Z")
The whole point of crossword clues is to be sorta close but not totally precise.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/15 "2017-05-10T13:17:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> The whole point of crossword clues is to be sorta close but not totally precise.
You are referring to many _U.S._ crossword clues, which are indeed like this. The NY Times, for example.
Good U.K. cryptic crosswords (the London Times, for example) are always precise when you parse them correctly, but designed to mislead on a superficial reading.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/16 "2017-05-10T13:38:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#):
>
> Good U.K. cryptic crosswords (the London Times, for example) are always precise when you parse them correctly, but designed to mislead on a superficial reading.
I’m not sure we’re all using the word “precise” in precisely the same way. I wouldn’t have described crossword clues the way **LSL Guy** did. U.S. crossword clues do have to play by the rules (such as the one mentioned upthread that the clue has to be the same tense as the answer), they’re just different rules from those of cryptic clues. And in both cases, as long as they play by the rules, they can use words in tricky, ambiguous, and misleading ways.
But one key difference (which may be what **LSL Guy** meant) is that, with cryptic clues, there’s typically only one answer that properly fits the clue, whereas with U.S. style crosswords you sometimes have to rely on the crossing words to know which possible answer to a clue really fits the puzzle—which makes “[Schrödinger puzzles](https://www.xwordinfo.com/Quantum)” possible.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/17 "2017-05-10T15:24:19Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> But then the answer would be HAD SUNG.
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#):
>
> Agreed. The clue was ambiguous, but not unfairly so.
Maybe.
I would expect a wellmade clue to not require you to fill in words from the other direction to indicate what tense the writer had in mind. That should be indicated somehow by the clue, in my opinion.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/18 "2017-05-10T15:31:51Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#):
>
> Maybe.
>
> I would expect a wellmade clue to not require you to fill in words from the other direction to indicate what tense the writer had in mind. That should be indicated somehow by the clue, in my opinion.
I agree. And I’m pretty certain I’ve seen clues requiring the past participle form of the verb, but the “had” is always dropped in the answer, since it is given in the clue. The “had” is implied. I’ve never seen something like “had sung” in a crossword answer, unless it was part of a long themed answer, perhaps. At least if I saw a clue that said “Had squealed to the police,” “sung” would be the immediate answer to come to my mind, not “had sung.”
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### Author:  [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/19 "2017-05-10T16:15:51Z")
Singed?
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sang-or-sung/786211/20 "2017-05-10T16:41:13Z")
Depends on how hot the lights were in the interrogation room. 😃
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