# Santorum Proposed Penalizing People Who Didn't Evacuate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492 "2005-09-07T10:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/1 "2005-09-07T10:28:42Z")
I suppose I should be glad I didn’t hear about this Friday, and I will point out that Senator Rick Santorum is now explaining his remarks. Nevertheless, [here they are in all their glory:](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05250/566844.stm) > [@](#): > > I mean, you have people who don’t heed those warnings and then put people at risk as a result of not heeding those warnings. There may be a need to look at tougher penalties on those who decide to ride it out and understand that there are consequences to not leaving. OK, fine. This may be another case of foot-in-mouth disease. Lord knows, he’s done it before. It’s also probably true he genuinely means what he says when he says > [@](#): > > Obviously, most of the people here in this case, an overwhelming majority of people, just literally couldn’t have gotten out on their own," he said. "Many didn’t have cars. … And that really was a failure on the part of local officials in not making transportation available to get people out. On the other hand, his initial remark is just as ham-handed and insulting as his comments to people last year who lost their homes and businesses to flooding caused by Hurricane Ivan that they should have bought flood insurance. Some of those affected were those whose properties had never flooded and to whom flood insurance wasn’t available. Mr. Santorum, I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is privileged enough to enjoy the level of prosperity you do. I’ve ridden out a category 5 hurricane. I was lucky and terrified enough to be able to use public transportation to get to somewhat higher ground and to have somewhere to go. I was also lucky enough to miss the brunt of the storm. Evacuating requires somewhere to go and the means to get to it. With public transportation, Greyhound, and the airport all shut down, getting somewhere wasn’t easy. This is one of the things which makes me angriest about this tragedy even without Santorum’s ill-spoken remarks. Yes, some people were willfully stupid and stayed behind when they could have left. On the other hand, hurricanes have been headed straight for New Orleans before and missed. I gather most of the people who stayed did so because they had nowhere to go and no means to get there, and to imply they should be punished is outrageous and, speaking as an Episcopalian to a Catholic, un-Christian. **Mr. Moto** , my parents like Santorum, too. Several years ago, he or his staff bailed them out by answering a question regarding a visa my grandmother needed when no one else, including the US State Department could. More and more though, he seems hopelessly out of touch with ordinary people. I’ll also confess to a recent personal incident – when I visited my parents a few weeks ago, they gave me a letter he’d sent to me at their address. I haven’t lived there for over 4 years, and I’ve been registered to vote at my current address since shortly after I moved. I’ve even written to his office from here. One bright spot. If he keeps pulling stuff like this, it should make it easier to defeat him. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/2 "2005-09-07T11:59:58Z")
I don’t like Santorum and I don’t agree with much of what he’s said in the past, but he could have made his remarks worthwhile if he proposed something like a means test for the application of this punishment: If you stayed _and had the means to leave_, you deserve to be punished for costing us the money it takes to rescue your sorry ass and give you aid that could have gone to someone without your means of escape. Of course, I think public transportation to an aid area (like a Red Cross refugee camp) should be an option for everybody, with reasonable provision for pets and _essential and/or irreplacable_ items (heirlooms, medical devices, etc.). If a person doesn’t take the chance to leave on the government’s dime, we wash our hands of him: If he’s adult enough to stay, he’s adult enough to face the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/3 "2005-09-07T13:03:27Z")
Its the pit so I can say it. I barely know who Santorum is, but every time he opens his mouth he proves he’s a Tool! Mama Bush, out of touch. No surprise, I always kind of liked her but she did opt for the M R S degree and rich political family. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/4 "2005-09-07T13:15:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean, you have people who don’t heed those warnings and then put people at risk as a result of not heeding those warnings. There may be a need to look at tougher penalties on those who decide to ride it out and understand that there are consequences to not leaving. Um, I think they already know there are consequences to not leaving. You know, like being lucky to have made it out alive. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/5 "2005-09-07T13:17:15Z")
Question: if someone had the means and ability to leave, but chose to stay, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? And… if the only thing stopping a person from leaving was pet care – that is, they had the means and ability to leave themselves, but chose to stay behind only because they could not bring pets along, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? ---
**Author:** ![Domokun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Domokun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Domokun)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/6 "2005-09-07T13:28:21Z")
They’ve suffered enough. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/7 "2005-09-07T13:32:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question: if someone had the means and ability to leave, but chose to stay, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? > > And… if the only thing stopping a person from leaving was pet care – that is, they had the means and ability to leave themselves, but chose to stay behind only because they could not bring pets along, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? What if the reason was humanitarian? {You know those damn rich doctors, nurses, police and fireman and church leaders and etc.?} Who’s going to set up the courts to review each case? How would you prove any of this? Who decides? Wouldn’t more money be wasted in court fees than gained? Isn’t being caught in this nightmare enough punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/8 "2005-09-07T13:34:20Z")
If it’s so clear that everyone needs to evacuate, then the time to do something about it is before the disaster strikes, with transportation provided for everybody (including the handicapped and invalid), and people going from house to house getting everybody out. After the disaster, it’s too late – and the people have already been punished by the disaster, so why punish them a second time. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/9 "2005-09-07T13:35:56Z")
> [@](#): > > They’ve suffered enough. Damned straight. We’re not supposed to point fingers at the government responders, but it’s OK for the government to pillory the victims?!? Santorum needs to be airdropped into the center of lake Pontchartrain in his underwear and naught else. Good luck, Senator! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/10 "2005-09-07T13:45:15Z")
Better yet, put him in his skivvies into the center of New Orleans with a bucket and mop and tell him to start cleaning. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/11 "2005-09-07T14:04:33Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Isn’t being caught in this nightmare enough punishment? No. We need to punish them so that we can view them as criminals, not victims. That way, we can sleep easy at night, knowing that those horrible bastards got just what they deserved. Because thinking of them as victims is too much to bear. Human defense mechanisms are funny things. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/12 "2005-09-07T14:05:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And… if the only thing stopping a person from leaving was pet care – that is, they had the means and ability to leave themselves, but chose to stay behind only because they could not bring pets along, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/13 "2005-09-07T14:08:56Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > What if the reason was humanitarian? {You know those damn rich doctors, nurses, police and fireman and church leaders and etc.?} > Who’s going to set up the courts to review each case? > How would you prove any of this? > Who decides? > Wouldn’t more money be wasted in court fees than gained? > Isn’t being caught in this nightmare enough punishment? These strike me as easy enough questions to answer: _What if the reason was humanitarian?_ Of course, an exception for those who stay behind as a function of their job or for a general humanitarian reason makes sense. \*Who’s going to set up the courts to review each case? \* The courts are already set up to review cases. That’s actually the function of courts: to apply the law to the facts of a particular case. \*How would you prove any of this? \* Assuming the rule is civil in nature, it would be handled in the same way any other administrative civil penalty would be assessed, such as the failure to shovel snow or keep your grass mowed. A citation would be issued, the person in question would have to pay or appear, the evidence establishing the violation would be heard, and the evidence rebutting the violation or proving an exception would be heard, and the hearing officer would make a determination, which could be appealed. \*Who decides? \* See above. _Wouldn’t more money be wasted in court fees than gained?_ No, because the assessment against the person found liable would include court fees. _Isn’t being caught in this nightmare enough punishment?_ The purpose of a civil action is not to impose punihsment, but to recompense the government for expenses it’s incurred as the result of the failure to adhere to regulations. So answer my question now. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/14 "2005-09-07T14:17:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question: if someone had the means and ability to leave, but chose to stay, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? > > And… if the only thing stopping a person from leaving was pet care – that is, they had the means and ability to leave themselves, but chose to stay behind only because they could not bring pets along, would you support some sort of penalty being assessed against them? Not if the current laws in NO and/or LA don’t account for fines or punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/15 "2005-09-07T14:27:50Z")
Ok, let’s see. For those who did not evacuate, Santorum, Bricker, and others think that it might be a good idea to bring them up on charges, have them convicted, and sent off to a place in which they are fed three crappy meals a day, live with a large number of strangers in a communal setting, and stay there, doing nothing, for a period of months to years. This is opposed to the current situation, in which the refugees are now being sent off to many different states, to be fed cafeteria food and live in dormitories (or sporting stadia), and are expected to stay there for long periods of time. It sounds like a large number of the refugees are already receiving the same treatment as Santorum and Bricker propose, only without the added governmental expense of trials and prison guards. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/16 "2005-09-07T14:36:33Z")
Here’s the thing, people who CHOSE to stay are sucking up resources that are needed by people who were FORCED to stay. Helicopters pick them up instead of other people. They drink water and eat food that other people need. Every person who chose to stay is making it longer and harder to get control of the situation, and I know for damn sure that there are people dead because of it. When there is a mandatory evacuation, and you have the means to evacuate, you should be held responsible for costs associated with your failure to evacuate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/17 "2005-09-07T14:36:57Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Not if the current laws in NO and/or LA don’t account for fines or punishment. Absolutely agree. So let’s modify my question: would you support such a system being established for, say, Detroit, so that if some large natural disaster is bearing down on that city, those with the means and ability to do so are fined if they fail to evacuate? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, let’s see. For those who did not evacuate, Santorum, Bricker, and others think that it might be a good idea to bring them up on charges, have them convicted, and sent off to a place in which they are fed three crappy meals a day, live with a large number of strangers in a communal setting, and stay there, doing nothing, for a period of months to years. > > This is opposed to the current situation, in which the refugees are now being sent off to many different states, to be fed cafeteria food and live in dormitories (or sporting stadia), and are expected to stay there for long periods of time. > > It sounds like a large number of the refugees are already receiving the same treatment as Santorum and Bricker propose, only without the added governmental expense of trials and prison guards. My gosh, you’re off base. 1. I’m asking a question – not proposing anything. 2. I’m asking about a civil penalty, not a criminal one, so your idea about being “sent off someplace” is pretty daffy. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/18 "2005-09-07T14:39:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > These strike me as easy enough questions to answer: > > \*How would you prove any of this? \* Assuming the rule is civil in nature, it would be handled in the same way any other administrative civil penalty would be assessed, such as the failure to shovel snow or keep your grass mowed. A citation would be issued, the person in question would have to pay or appear, the evidence establishing the violation would be heard, and the evidence rebutting the violation or proving an exception would be heard, and the hearing officer would make a determination, which could be appealed. > > \*Who decides? \* See above. I think an important point would be is the evacuation order legally binding? If we are dealing with mandatory evacuation, than in theory I think I agree that those who chose to stay behind are liable for costs of their own rescue at least in theory. In the case of pets, one interesting ramification I would like to see is whether the damages awarded in cases in which someone’s pet was killed match up against the fees of a helicopter rescue. > [@](#): > > _Wouldn’t more money be wasted in court fees than gained?_ No, because the assessment against the person found liable would include court fees. Though its questionable whether you could actually collect. The reason to do it would, as far as I am concerned, primarily be as encouragement for compliance in future evacuation orders. > [@](#): > > _Isn’t being caught in this nightmare enough punishment?_ The purpose of a civil action is not to impose punihsment, but to recompense the government for expenses it’s incurred as the result of the failure to adhere to regulations. > > So answer my question now. My question is was the order mandatory and as such legally binding? That’s a very important premise for this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/19 "2005-09-07T14:40:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …snip… > What if the reason was humanitarian? Of course, an exception for those who stay behind as a function of their job or for a general humanitarian reason makes sense. > …snip… > So answer my question now. No, they have been punished enough and you are not a very nice person. You actually wish to send potentially 1000’s of cases to court to fine people for not responding to an evacuation. People who have now lost everything. Don’t be so snippy about my challenging your statement on the Humanitarians, your question is malevolent enough to make me wonder? You still have not replied to many questions asked of you in other threads so please don’t expect me to remain civil with you. Examples only: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6549985&postcount=280](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6549985&postcount=280) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6541377&postcount=254](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6541377&postcount=254) I disagreed with many points made by \*\*Magiver \*\* and **Sequent** but they respond with ideas and facts not stonewalling. You pick and choose what to answer and maintain a no compromise view from what I can see in the last week. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/20 "2005-09-07T14:42:00Z")
Santorum has an unfortunate habit lately of making his point badly. Still, he has a point. I was reading Sunday’s Washington Post, and caught an opinion piece by James Nolan, who decided to ride out the storm. Now, Mr. Nolan doesn’t seem destitute. He lives in a house built in 1810 in the French Quarter, and teaches at Loyola University. He also writes and composes poetry, so we can presume that he’s perfectly capable of understanding a storm warning. He stayed, I guess, because he is a pigheaded fool, and put himself at great risk. Furthermore, he made the job of a great many other people harder because he made a poor decision. [Link.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090202677.html) > [@](#): > > The real nightmare began last Wednesday morning, when the city cut off the water supply two days after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans. Until then, I hadn’t regretted **the decision** not to evacuate my second-story French Quarter apartment, even when the electricity flicked off in the middle of the storm, plunging the city into darkness and ending most outside communication. > > I still had hope. Now, when educated and prosperous idiots like Mr. Nolan make poor choices like this, and place others at great risk, what recourse does society have? We have the law. And responsible legislation might be just the thing to ensure that Professor Nolan does the right thing in the future. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492.md?page=2)