# Santorum Proposed Penalizing People Who Didn't Evacuate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492 "2005-09-07T10:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/81 "2005-09-07T18:42:14Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > It seems to me that we are addressing two different questions here. Actually three: > > 1. Is it appropriate to fine people for climbing the wrong mountain? > 2. Is it appropriate to fine the good people of Detroit in the future? > 3. Is it appropriate to _retroactively_ fine people in New Orleans? > > I think we have a concensus that the answers are 1) Yes, 2) Maybe, and 3) No. Any dissent on that? Nope. I think that’s a good summary. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/82 "2005-09-07T18:42:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Same objection could be applied to existing schemes like snow removal and grass height. Why don’t they collapse under multiple fake claims? I would imagine that determining if someone owns a car would be pretty easy. Assuming that the DMV infrastructure is still in place, which I assume is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/83 "2005-09-07T18:44:57Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I would imagine that determining if someone owns a car would be pretty easy. Assuming that the DMV infrastructure is still in place, which I assume is the case. Sure. But more to the point, we assume that people are not willing to commit perjury to save themselves a fine. I assume that the people posting in this thread agree with that proposition, both in their own lives and as an accurate description of the people in New Orleans or any other American city. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/84 "2005-09-07T18:51:24Z")
I’m on board with your summary, **tdn**. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/85 "2005-09-07T18:52:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I assume that the people posting in this thread agree with that proposition, both in their own lives and as an accurate description of the people in New Orleans or any other American city. > > Right? I wouldn’t make that assumption about others, but for myself I’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/86 "2005-09-07T18:55:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But more to the point, we assume that people are not willing to commit perjury to save themselves a fine. > > I assume that the people posting in this thread agree with that proposition, both in their own lives and as an accurate description of the people in New Orleans or any other American city. > > Right? You sound more than a little desperate there. Might it not be a simple financial calculation for quite a few folks? The penalty for perjury (if youg get it, it’s what, a few months of 3 hots and a cot at state expense, and an addition to a record you may already have) vs. a pile of money you don’t have and could use better if you did. For the poor, isn’t that the type of tradeoff calculation that’s simply part of everyday life? I have a great deal of trouble with condemning someone for being willing to risk his own life in order to protect the only property he has. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/87 "2005-09-07T19:08:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I have a great deal of trouble with condemning someone for being willing to risk his own life in order to protect the only property he has. This isn’t a fucking academic exercise, you know. It’s mighty crass of you to speak of condemnation after many people made these calculations and wound up condemned indeed. Yeah, they risked their life to protect their property, and do you know what? They lost their property and their lives both. And in the future, if there is another factor in place that might induce them to make a better choice, I think it’s something we need to put in place before the next storm hits. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/88 "2005-09-07T19:13:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You sound more than a little desperate there. Might it not be a simple financial calculation for quite a few folks? The penalty for perjury (if youg get it, it’s what, a few months of 3 hots and a cot at state expense, and an addition to a record you may already have) vs. a pile of money you don’t have and could use better if you did. For the poor, isn’t that the type of tradeoff calculation that’s simply part of everyday life? Well, having been quite poor myself, I can tell you that in my family we believed that telling the truth and keeping your word were absolutely essential elements of behavior, and would not have resolved the “tradeoff calculation” in the manner you suggest. I do not believe you are correct in your assessment of the poor as a whole, either. Undoubtedly there are people that do not take an oath to tell the truth seriously; in my experience, they populate all walks of life. I have not noticed a greater tendency amongst the poor to be liars, no. And I find it kind of ironic: isn’t mine the “liberal” position here, and yours the heartless conservative one? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/89 "2005-09-07T19:23:25Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > This isn’t a fucking academic exercise, you know. Then don’t talk about it like it is one. > [@](#): > > It’s mighty crass of you to speak of condemnation after many people made these calculations and wound up condemned indeed. Typical misdirection play. The condemnation, and crassness, here is that of people who say things like this: > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Yeah, they risked their life to protect their property, and do you know what? They lost their property and their lives both. > [@Bricker](#): > > I can tell you that in my family we believed that telling the truth and keeping your word were absolutely essential elements of behavior, And you walked barefoot to school in the snow, protected from the wind only by a sense of responsibility, yada yada. Desperate for reassurance you are indeed. > [@](#): > > And I find it kind of ironic: isn’t mine the “liberal” position here, and yours the heartless conservative one? No, yours is the ivory-tower, (“fucking academic exercise”, to borrow a phrase) position and mine is the real-world position. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/90 "2005-09-07T19:27:22Z")
After thinking about this, I’m gong to come down on the “don’t fine them” side. Even if it were technically the “right” thing to do, I don’t see that it makes good overall public policy. Having said that, I think there are other ways to motivate people to leave. Perhaps a better approach would be to offer some inducement to evacuate, in the case of a mandatory evacuation. People who did evacuate might be eligible for some form of additional insurance or something. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/91 "2005-09-07T19:37:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, yours is the ivory-tower, (“fucking academic exercise”, to borrow a phrase) position and mine is the real-world position. Like I said, mine is the liberal position. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/92 "2005-09-07T19:37:43Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Having said that, I think there are other ways to motivate people to leave. Perhaps a better approach would be to offer some inducement to evacuate, in the case of a mandatory evacuation. People who did evacuate might be eligible for some form of additional insurance or something. I’m not sure this works well in the case of people without real property. I saw a woman interviewed on TV, a Gulf Coast resident. She was elderly, didn’t seem to have a lot of money herself, but her family was there to get her out and stay with her until she could get back. She refused to go, so they all stayed with her, not wanting to leave her alone. During the night, a window blew out and showered her five year old grandson with flying glass. Luckily, nobody was badly hurt in this particular case. But it is yet another case of pigheaded people putting themselves and others at risk. Does anybody have any solutions here? I can understand opposition to a fine, honestly, but I don’t see anyone else suggesting anything else (save **John Mace** ) that might work. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/93 "2005-09-07T19:43:20Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > After thinking about this, I’m gong to come down on the “don’t fine them” side. Even if it were technically the “right” thing to do, I don’t see that it makes good overall public policy. Me too. The fine is a logical thing to institute, but it assumes we live in a logical world. In the real world there are just too many variables and other mucky muck to make it very realistic. I don’t agree with your alternatives, but I agree that we need _some_ sort of alternatives. I’m thinking along the lines of: 1. Make evacuation safe and easy for everyone. 2. Explain as best as possible why it is in citizens’ best interests to evacuate. 3. Make it known that staying behind may very well result in failed rescue attempts. Yeah, not great, but it’s the best I’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/94 "2005-09-07T19:44:48Z")
Wow. I’m just stunned at the vindictiveness I’m witnessing here. I would never in a million years have believed this would be a proposition any decent conservative would support. _More_ government strongarming? Wow. I was talking with my father last week; a staunch, Clinton-hating, Kerry-hating Republican through and through. He said he wouldn’t leave his (upper middle class) home, even with a mandatory evacuation order, if he didn’t want to, especially if he wasn’t allowed to take his dog, and further asserted, “what are they gonna do, come hold a gun to my head and _make_ me? They cannot force me out of my own home!” And yet here you guys are. I’m just blown away. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/95 "2005-09-07T19:46:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > But it is yet another case of pigheaded people putting themselves and others at risk. I can’t say much for the old lady, but I can’t blame her family for not wanting to leave her behind. They showed character, if not brains. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/96 "2005-09-07T20:03:17Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Let me offer an analogy. Maybe it’s not a great analogy, but it an analogy nonetheless, and one that can be discussed without the emotional context of Katrina. > > A group of hikers has plans to ascend a certain mountain peak. A blizzard is on it’s way and there is a warning against climing that mountain during the blizzard. The hikers are aware of the warning, but decide to attempt it anyway. They get stranded, suffer mentall anguish and some physical harm, and have to be rescued by helocopter, at some danger to the rescuers and some considerable cost to the taxpayers. Should we pass a law allowing people who do this sort of thing to pay a fine? I’m not talking about a fine for potientially entering a closed public area, but an additional fine for having to be rescued. That’s a rather poor analogy – creating a problem through one’s deliberate actions and allowing a problem to happen through one’s inaction are often treated very differently (e.g. I’m not allowed to throw trash on the neighbor’s lawn, but I’m under no obligation to clean up trash that is already there). ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/97 "2005-09-07T20:04:01Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > “what are they gonna do, come hold a gun to my head and _make_ me? They cannot force me out of my own home!” This is perfectly fine as long as you don’t go climbing on the roof of your home begging the authorities you so hate to save you from your own bad decision. Let everyone who was genuinely stuck and unable to leave get rescued first, then your hardheaded dad can get in line for services. Even when the rescues are going well, there is only so much manpower and equipment to go around. People who are stubborn take just as much time and effort to rescue as people who were trapped through no fault of their own. jsgoddess, you’re right, he will take up a space. However, as a rule, I’d rather have those spaces taken up 100% with evacuees and know for sure that nobody else could get out safely, than have bunches of people choosing to stay and weigh down rescue efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/98 "2005-09-07T20:19:19Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I was talking with my father last week; a staunch, Clinton-hating, Kerry-hating Republican through and through. He said he wouldn’t leave his (upper middle class) home, even with a mandatory evacuation order, if he didn’t want to, especially if he wasn’t allowed to take his dog, and further asserted, “what are they gonna do, come hold a gun to my head and _make_ me? They cannot force me out of my own home!” I’m sure I’d get along with your dad just fine. Neverless, if he feels this way, he either is wrong or he doesn’t really believe it, and would actually evacuate if push came to shove. I pray he’s never tested on this belief of his. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/99 "2005-09-07T20:27:58Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > That’s a rather poor analogy… OK, here’s another one: The city has condemned your house because it is dangerous. You refuse to leave. The authorities have to come and physically remove you. Should there by any consequences for your actions? Now, scale this up to an entire neighborhood. (Something similar actually happened to me during the '89 Loma Prieta earthquake. A house on my block came off its foundation and the police made everyone on the block evacuate to a safer area until they could secure the gas lines. Had people not left, the authorities would have been delayed in finding and fixing the problem.) What if the city of N.O. had condemned low-lying property in advance of the storm, had required an evactuation to take place, and supplied the needed transportation to evacuate? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/100 "2005-09-07T20:47:43Z")
I’d like to offer another view on forced evacuations that I haven’t seen yet on the board. Several days ago someone mentioned that if you had no car or bus to get out of the city, you could walk. After all, it’s just a few miles, right? But this makes the naive assumption that the path of the storm is confined to city limits. In truth, it cut something like a 200 mile swath, right? So imagine being some 20 miles outside of town, lugging a suitcase, and getting caught in the storm. Out of doors. No shelter to be had. Now, this may not be the case, but I can see how people might think it would be. So what would make more sense, to be caught outside and away from home, or to be inside, sheltered and dry, in a city where the infrastructure will stay intact, for all you know? As I said, if I were in that situation, even knowing what I know now, I would be hard pressed to leave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492.md?page=6)