# Santorum Proposed Penalizing People Who Didn't Evacuate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492 "2005-09-07T10:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/121 "2005-09-08T11:10:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Enderw24 > > Some people were completely igornant of it. If many of the poorer and rural areas, some people speak little to no English, and there is no Spanish-language news or weather tv stations serving them. The state passed out Spanish-language flyers the Sunday before the hurricane hit, but many people heard about it by word of mouth, and did not get notice that they should exacuate until only a few hours before it made landfall. I do not think Spanish is the only non-English language they have to deal with there. My understanding is a lot of the rural backwater places are still predominantly Cajun, and that in those places, literacy isn’t high, so newspapers would not be much help. As to the current discussion, I have no problem with trying to enforce a manditory evacuation in some situations, but in those instances you need #1 To make sure there is somewhere for all those people to go and #2 a way for them to get there. We can talk all we want about the odd individual who had other options, but in a city with 30% poverty rate, my guess is that those people were exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/122 "2005-09-08T13:28:54Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And I don’t agree with you that there should be no charge in the near misses. I think that’s when the enforcement should be strictest, to drive the point home. Anyone caught in the zone without a damn good reason gets cited. You keep saying your reasons are not punitive, but then you say stuff like this. Forgive me for not believing you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/123 "2005-09-08T13:37:37Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You keep saying your reasons are not punitive, but then you say stuff like this. Forgive me for not believing you. What is the purpose of a mandatory evacuation, then, if it isn’t _really_ mandatory. Why do we wink at prople who flout this, despite the harm caused? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/124 "2005-09-08T13:37:45Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I hope that you are never in a situation where you have to abandon an elderly or dying person who _has_ to stay in order to follow the evacuation order “to the letter.” > > I also hope that you are never that person who _cannot_ leave. > > Some did not leave for the sake of humanity. Thank God for these people who were “pigheaded” and did not follow the letter of the law: > > I think of the doctors and nurses that stayed at Charity Hospital. The dead were stacked in the stairwells because the morque was flooded. No food. No water. No medicine. The doctors and nurses sang songs to the patients to encourage them, _"We need you to survive…_" > > Drag them into court, **Mr. Moto**. > > **tdn** beat me to it. _Punitive_. You are a very hostile person. I can’t speak for **Mr. Moto** ’s vision of how the law would work, but in post #13 of this thread, I specifically addressed humanitarian reasons for staying, and said they would be exempt under the law. So I’m a little confused as to why you’d bring them up now. Has **Mr. Moto** said something to indicate he doesn’t agree with the framework proposed in post #13? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/125 "2005-09-08T13:43:21Z")
If I haven’t made it clear, I am in full agreement with that construction. Obviously, there are people who will need to be in the excluded zone, and those folks won’t be prosecuted. Just like cops who chase down speeders aren’t cited for speeding themselves. The law makes distinctions like this all of the time, and I see no reason why this wouldn’t be another case of such. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/126 "2005-09-08T14:12:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, so, under that hypothetical scenario, you issue a warning. Nine times out of ten, nothing greatly untoward happens. The storm is not as bad as it could have been, and the legal conditions for prosecuting dilly-dalliers are not met: no prosecutions result. First time, everybody clears out. Second time, not so much. Third time, back to business as usual, and the government’s threats are treated as background noise. And the tenth time, when the Wrath of an Angry God scours the city down to the soil, you actually think you’re going to get away with putting a hundred thousand anguished survivors in a defendant’s chair? Really? Excellent points, **Cervaise** --and I totally agree. As for the rest of the thread, and **Mr. Moto’s** strange foray into military rule–I don’t see it working one bit. I DO envision remaining people exchanging gunfire with “rescuers” who are there to either cite, arrest or kill them. NO’s horror is due to many factors–geography being a big one. I don’t agree that those who stayed behind “chose” to do so. A minority of them, sure–saw what was coming, reckoned their odds and stayed put. Many more went into denial and thought, “it can’t be that bad–I rode out the last few” etc. Early on, it seemed that they might be correct. Tragically, they were not. I just don’t see fines/arrests/jail time being an effective way of solving this problem. If I am poor-so poor I do not have access to a car–and am told to leave a place, I will need transport. If no transport is made available (I heard a story of $200 cab fare to Baton Rouge!), I suppose I can walk–but I cannot outwalk a hurricane. And where am I to go? I have no money; I have relatives/kids who depend on me; what little I DO have, I treasure. The natural inclination is to stay put and hold on to what little I have. And if “justice prevails”? What then? The court is gonna charge me money I don’t have, garnishee a wage I don’t make, take my home in which I have no equity, repossess a car I don’t have? WTF? I hafta agree with **Cervaise** and **the mad hermit** --don’t hide behind some falsely reassuring “law and order” bullshit. Say it–be honest: we want the poor and all their problems to go away for good. Here’s hoping there are no survivors of the next big one. You all got what you deserved, you parasites on our land. It seems a thinly veiled attempt to judicially condemen people for being poor. **Mr. Moto** --surely you understand that your experiences in the military do not equate with the average citizen’s experience with a hurricane? You had orders, had somewhere to go, had supplies, had a shared sense of mission with a peer group. There was no survival of the fittest for you in your anecdotes. Hey, I give you credit for doing the work, but it’s the difference between being the nurse and being the patient. Not even close to equivalent positions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/127 "2005-09-08T14:23:09Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I just don’t see fines/arrests/jail time being an effective way of solving this problem. If I am poor-so poor I do not have access to a car–and am told to leave a place, I will need transport. If no transport is made available (I heard a story of $200 cab fare to Baton Rouge!), I suppose I can walk–but I cannot outwalk a hurricane. And where am I to go? I have no money; I have relatives/kids who depend on me; what little I DO have, I treasure. The natural inclination is to stay put and hold on to what little I have. And if “justice prevails”? What then? The court is gonna charge me money I don’t have, garnishee a wage I don’t make, take my home in which I have no equity, repossess a car I don’t have? WTF? Excuse me. But I have to ask if I wrote posts #5 and #13 in invisible ink? In post #5, I clearly said that the question was addressed to people with the means to leave. **Mr. Moto** has indicated he agrees with that framework. So why are you bringing up people with no money as a reason not to proceed with this plan? As everyone in this thread agrees, having no resources to evacuate exempts you from the fine. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/128 "2005-09-08T14:33:37Z")
FYI, **furlibusea** , that wasn’t me you were quoting. That was **CynicalGabe** ’s response to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/129 "2005-09-08T14:41:11Z")
I rode out Hurricane Isabel as an average citizen. Just me and my wife and kids in our basement together. I’ve been on the other side of it as well. Those Greek merchantmen who died when their ship sank ignored weather warnings and sailed right into the teeth of the worst storm the Med had seen in decades. Their ship broke apart off the coast of Sicily and sank. We got the call to assist in a search. I was working at the Tactical Support Center in Sigonella at the time. We supported Navy P-3 aircraft, as well as allied maritime air. I helped, over several days, to brief and debrief aircrews, plot search areas, man communications nets and data links with the aircraft. It was a significant expenditure of resources on our part, undertaken to help people who shouldn’t have been in the area in the first place. Sound familiar? And in the end, all that was found was debris. Nine Greek sailors died. So no, I haven’t been the nurse. But I’ve been something a bit closer to a rescuer than anyone else posting here. And while that doesn’t give my arguments any greater weight, it should at least dispel any notions that I’m proposing these for any reason other than the belief that they will be helpful in saving lives. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/130 "2005-09-08T14:59:03Z")
**Bricker/Moto** you guys are funny the way you can ignore how people actually think and behave. Here’s my case, I’ve lived in town X for 20 years. Numerous times, I 've been given the mandatory leave order, obeyed and left only to be told that the hurricane just missed or the damage isn’t really that bad and to return home. The previous evacuations have cost me X dollars, cost me work, and a one case allowed my home to be looted. Once again, I receive the warning and decide **this** time, based on my prior experience with the weather, the government and my neighbours; I stay home. How bad can it be, right? I board up my stained glass windows, secure my Bentley, grab my 21 year blonde girlfriend with the big boobs and tiny waist, fire up the oven, start the Baked Alaska and laugh at all the suckers leaving town…“they’ll be back”, I think to myself. Then the levees break. By the time I realize I was wrong, it’s too late…and now need to be evacuted. My home is gone or close enough to being gone. My girlfriend is sick, from contained water and I just shake my head and wish this time I did go, like I did all the previous times. Do you fine me? Why? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/131 "2005-09-08T15:00:14Z")
OMFG, how dense ARE you? The nurse/patient analogy was a METAPHOR. In the guise of a rescuer, YOU were indeed the nurse. Kudos to you for “riding out hurricane Isobel in the basement with your wife and kids.” You now owe Uncle Sam some moola (according to your own propsition–or didn’t you have means to leave?) OK, **Bricker** --guilty as charged. I was not answering your posts directly, I was addressing the whole nasty ass feel of the thread. I completely agree with the upthread post of " **No Person Down Left Unkicked**. How many, how many had the means and _chose_ to stay? I read about a guy in The New Yorker yesterday who stayed to guard his effing wine cellar. Now, there’s a priority. But here’s the thing: I think that IF he were to fall victim to West Nile or similiar–we should still get him out. And not fine him. Isn’t that what personal freedom is all about? The GOP continually shoves that down our throats–here it is in action. What if wine guy is now permanently disabled from WNV and has lost all his assets? How ya gonna get money from a turnip? What is the POINT? Human behavior isn’t going to change, and as Katrina fades into history–it will be repeated (but I hope not on this scale). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/132 "2005-09-08T15:02:41Z")
I am fully aware that people will behave that way, which is why I think there should be sanctions should they not behave in a way helpful to the situation. Again, all I’m hearing from most people here is why this won’t work. Does anyone have any suggestions on what might? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/133 "2005-09-08T15:07:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can’t speak for **Mr. Moto** ’s vision of how the law would work, but in post #13 of this thread, I specifically addressed humanitarian reasons for staying, and said they would be exempt under the law. As I’ve said, that’s nice in theory, I just don’t see it being terribly practical in the real world. How many additional hearings do you estimate this would take? Of both innocent and guilty alike, that is? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/134 "2005-09-08T15:11:09Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > How many additional hearings do you estimate this would take? Of both innocent and guilty alike, that is? In addition, what sorts of fines are we talking about? $100? $1,000? $50,000? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/135 "2005-09-08T15:12:06Z")
However many it takes. I hope there would be very few, though, since the purpose of such a law would be to deter such behavior. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/136 "2005-09-08T15:17:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excuse me. But I have to ask if I wrote posts #5 and #13 in invisible ink? No, you didn’t. The main problem I have with this is in sorting people out. I just think it would get awfully sticky for the courts to try to decide it all. Yes, that’s what courts do, but this is potentially a buttload of cases, with reasons for staying that the courts may not have anticipated. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/137 "2005-09-08T15:19:42Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > However many it takes. Can you be more specific? Are we just talking a few dozen? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/138 "2005-09-08T15:29:17Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I am fully aware that people will behave that way, which is why I think there should be sanctions should they not behave in a way helpful to the situation. > > Again, all I’m hearing from most people here is why this won’t work. Does anyone have any suggestions on what might? And you get to judge what dicatates helpful behaviour? The reasons why you’re getting negative responses is because your sanctions are ridiculous and will do nothing to deter people who do not believe they are in danger. You would have a point if the we knew the exact time and date and place the hurricane struck, knocked on the guy’s door, showed him the data and told him he HAD to leave or he was on his own. He then signed a piece of paper to that effect, with a promise to pay for any rescue attempts, including the lost of life and illness of the people to come to help him. Then YES fine the sucker. Then you could have your sanctions, but to penalize people for behaving in what may be due to prior experiences a perfectly rational and reasonable decision, because that decision went wrong, is ridiculous and petty and not a little bit on the classist side, as if people with means should know better and must be held to a higher standard, than just plain folks. Nothing will work, except to impress upon people the seriousness of the situation and hope that they make the right choice, somethings the right choice is staying home, others it’s leaving; but I fail to see the purpose in fining people because they don’t have the ability to see into the future…sometimes the bull gets YOU. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/139 "2005-09-08T15:32:52Z")
I largely agree with **Bricker** and **Mr. Moto**. I think that people should be responsible for the effects of the choices they make, and that, for those people who **voluntarily** (i.e. have the option, means, ability, to leave) choose to remain after a mandatory evacuation order is given, a fine is not unreasonable. I would agree with this because it is appropriate to help defray the costs involved in rescuing and providing other services to people who needn’t have been in the circumstances of requiring these services. It is in keeping with my beliefs about the mutual obligations that exist between an individual and society, upon which my agreement with the principles of the Democratic party lies. I feel the same way about it that I do about mandatory motorcycle helmet laws. (I hope **Mr. Moto** agrees with mandatory helmet laws because otherwise he is being a bit hypocritical). However, I don’t think it is possible to have most people pay some amount that is equal to the costs of saving their ass, so the amount would have to be more symbolic than proportional. However, given that my motivations are to have people be accountable for the increased cost to society for their actions, the process of administering fines (and the associated time taken in the courts) would probably end up costing more than would be brought in from the fines. Additionally, I could see someone making a claim, not entirely without merit, that they should be reimbursed for the costs involved to them if they are given an order for mandatory evacuation that ends up having been unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492/140 "2005-09-08T15:49:34Z")
Just to give us some meat to shew on here, instead of a picked clean bone, I checked out our own Virginia Code. Lo and behold, it states that the governor has the power to compel evacuation in an emergency, and that that order has the force of law. Failure to comply with it is a Class 1 misdemeanor. Class 1 misdemeanors are punishable by confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both. Prosecutorial and judicial discretion apply as always. I find no particular fault with this law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/santorum-proposed-penalizing-people-who-didnt-evacuate/320492.md?page=8)