Santorum Proposed Penalizing People Who Didn't Evacuate

[SteveG1]

@Mr. Moto

Not really an issue, in my mind, as long as the person involved turns around and then does a good job.

There’s the rub. Brown did not do his job.

[eleanorigby]

Mr. Moto
Those who wont’ leave should be detained and brought before a judge?

Huh?

And you say you have search and rescue experience?

NO looks like the gates of Hell at present.

Where ya gonna put the detainees? Where is the courtroom and the judge? How to provide meals/shelter/supplies for the detainees? Why create a problem inside a disaster?

Didn’t officials have enough trouble with guarding the prisoners on that bridge?

Shouldn’t manpower be focussed on restoring civilization in some guise, rather than petty bureaucratic misdemeanor?
Does your love of law and order really displace any insight into the vagaries of human behavior?

[Mr.Moto]

@eleanorigby

Mr. Moto
Those who wont’ leave should be detained and brought before a judge?

Huh?

I said cited or detained. And there might be circumstances where you’ll need to detain people, at least temporarily.

Those people who are going to be removed by force from New Orleans in the near future will be detained and transported, won’t they?

Looters should be detained, shouldn’t they?

And yes, I think, in the end, people who disobey the law ought to be held to account for it.

What about community service, eleanorigby? Wouldn’t that be a good choice, to turn these people from a burden on resources into an asset?

[mack]

@Mr. Moto

What we need, then, is for these laws to be enforced, and enforced fairly.

That means people caught in an exclusion zone without good reason are cited or detained, dependeng on the severity of the offense.

So we go from wasting precious time and resources by rescuing people who apparently don’t deserve to be rescued to wasting time and resources by writing them tickets or rounding them up and detaining them?

Whether you ‘rescue’ or ‘detain’ someone you’re expending resources to grab and process them. You haven’t freed up resources. You haven’t solved the problem.

Some problems have no good solutions. The only thing that will make people leave is the threat of certain death by that which they’re evacuating from, and even then you’re going to have holdouts.

[SteveG1]

If “law and order” do nothing to improve the situation, if it is used to keep people under your thumb, but not to do anything for them, if it totally fails to bring any benefit and only serves to punish people for misfortune, then fuck the law.

[SteveG1]

Here’s a good example of your precious law. If some local yokel sheriff had taken away my food and water, blown down my makeshift shelter and prevented me from leaving, he’d be in serious trouble, and there would never be any forgive and forget. He’d be marked.

This is from post #7 in Great Debates. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333677

We decided we had to save ourselves. So we pooled our money and came up with $25,000 to have ten buses come and take us out of the City. Those who did not have the requisite $45.00 for a ticket were subsidized by those who did have extra money. We waited for 48 hours for the buses, spending the last 12 hours standing outside, sharing the limited water, food, and clothes we had. We created a priority boarding area for the sick, elderly and new born babies. We waited late into the night for the “imminent” arrival of the buses. The buses never arrived.
…
We organized a clean up and hung garbage bags from the rebar poles. We made beds from wood pallets and cardboard. We designated a storm drain as the bathroom and the kids built an elaborate enclosure for privacy out of plastic, broken umbrellas, and other scraps. We even organized a food recycling system where individuals could swap out parts of C-rations (applesauce for babies and candies for kids!).

This was a process we saw repeatedly in the aftermath of Katrina. When individuals had to fight to find food or water, it meant looking out for yourself only. You had to do whatever it took to find water for your kids or food for your parents. When these basic needs were met, people began to look out for each other, working together and constructing a community…

Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun at our faces, screaming, “Get off the fucking freeway”. A helicopter arrived and used the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water.

Once again, at gunpoint, we were forced off the freeway. All the law enforcement agencies appeared threatened when we congregated or congealed into groups of 20 or more. In every congregation of “victims” they saw “mob” or “riot”. We felt safety in numbers. Our “we must stay together” was impossible because the agencies would force us into small atomized groups.

[Bricker]

@SteveG1

Here’s a good example of your precious law.

Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun at our faces, screaming, “Get off the fucking freeway”. A helicopter arrived and used the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water.

Um…no.

That’s actually a bad example.

[SteveG1]

I think it’s a great example. Obey the “law”. Punish those who don’t. Here was a case where “the law” was compounding the problem, preventing people from doing what they needed to do. If it had been me, and I was that desparate, there’s no telling what would have happened. The people who should be punished are those who should have been taking charge and helping, but instead were making everything worse.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/09/katrina/main829294.shtml

Thousands of Hurricane Katrina evacuees <u>will not get those $2,000 debit cards</u> that are being distributed by FEMA. An agency officials says the <u>cards will only be available to those that are temporarily staying at the Astrodome in Houston</u>.

So what about all the others? This is like using a bandaid to heal someone who was disembowled - political bullshit. Make a puny gesture and make a lot of noise about how grand it is.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/09/earlyshow/main829303.shtml

(CBS) Michael Brown, head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency that has been heavily criticized for what many charge was a slow response to the decimation caused by Hurricane Katrina, now faces accusations that <u>his resume is padded</u>.
Much of the criticism of the response to the hurricane has been aimed at Brown, whose qualifications for the job have been questioned. Some even have called for him to be fired.
Now, Time magazine is questioning the validity of Brown’s White House biography in an article identifying several alleged discrepancies.
That bio and a White House news release says Brown worked for the city of Edmund, Okla., overseeing its Emergency Services Division.
But Carolina Miranda, a reporter for Time, tells The Early Show co-anchor Rene Syler that doesn’t appear to have been the case.
“His bio, the White House press release, and a number of sources list him as assistant city manager in Edmund, Okla.,” Miranda says. " When we called the folks in Edmund, they told us that, no, his position in fact had been assistant to the city manager, which is a purely administrative job, a very different job. <u>He was an administrative assistant. It’s sort of an entry-level, intern-type job</u> for somebody who’s interested in learning about government. When he began that job in 1977, he was still a college student. He didn’t graduate with his B.A. until 1978."

In other words, Brown was unqualified for the position as head of FEMA.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/06/48hours/main821560.shtml

Officials in Baton Rouge are now directing the rescue effort that seems to finally be making a difference. But as 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Sant reports, it’s come only after days of national shame.

In startling images, the world has watched while American citizens – the weakest and poorest among us – have been <u>left abandoned without food or water</u>, dying in the streets.

Many are blaming the horror on a colossal failure of government, and as the death toll mounts, a discomforting question is being asked. In the end, what will have contributed to more deaths: Katrina itself or the government’s incompetent sluggish response? <u>“This is bureaucracy at its worst and this bureaucracy at its worst</u> has committed murder in the New Orleans area,” says Aaron Broussard, who heads a local parish just outside New Orleans. “When the autopsies are finally done, they’re gonna find, horribly, that many people died many days after Mother Nature had come and gone – an atrociously high number of people who could have been saved if the time had been used wisely from the beginning.”

<u>Eight days after</u> Hurricane Katrina struck, state and federal officials say they are finally beginning to work together. But no one is denying all the mistakes – some of them fatal – that have occurred…
New Orleans’ poor, immobile population was <u>left behind – left to fend for themselves by city officials</u>.

“There are <u>no resources to get people out in that mass – no local government of a half million or that many buses to pull people out</u>,” says Broussard. “That’s what makes living in a bowl a risk. That’s why we beg people to evacuate in any way they can.”

The biggest shelter from the storm was the Superdome. At first it was a haven. It became a hellhole.

So there was no way to get out. No transportation.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/08/katrina.redcross/index.html

Red Cross: State rebuffed relief efforts
Aid organization never got into New Orleans, officials say.
BATON ROUGE, Louisiana (CNN) – Louisiana officials <u>rebuffed American Red Cross requests to enter New Orleans with relief supplies last week because of concerns over logistical difficulties</u>, Red Cross and state officials said Thursday.

The Red Cross never launched its relief effort in the city.
The national president of the American Red Cross, Marsha Evans, first made the request to undertake the operation during a visit to the state on September 1, three days after Hurricane Katrina struck, a local Red Cross chapter official said.

Vic Howell, chief executive officer of the agency’s Louisiana Capital Area Chapter, said he renewed that request the next day to Col. Jay Mayeaux, the deputy director of the Louisiana Office of <u>Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness</u>.

“We had adequate supplies, the people and the vehicles,” Howell said at a news conference in Baton Rouge. “It was the middle of a military rescue operation trying to save lives. We were <u>asked not to go in</u>, and we abided by that recommendation.”

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/09/katrina.powell.reut/index.html

“There have been a lot of failures at a lot of levels – local, state and federal,” Powell said in an ABC interview for the “20/20” program to be broadcast on Friday evening.
“There was more than enough warning over time about the dangers to New Orleans. Not enough was done. I don’t think advantage was taken of the time that was available to us, and I just don’t know why,” Powell said in excerpts on ABC’s Web site.
“I don’t think it’s racism, I think it’s economic,” Powell said. “But poverty disproportionately affects African-Americans in this country. And it happened because they were poor.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168849,00.html

Many basic first aid supplies, such as over-the-counter disinfectants for superficial wounds and scrapes, a container for needle disposal, and accessible telephone lines were unavailable. In one makeshift shelter, televisions, radios, and newspapers weren’t available to help keep the victims informed about the disaster. While the rest of the world stayed glued to the media coverage of the disaster, the victims themselves were left with questions about what was going on…
The lack of this country’s preparedness is completely unacceptable.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9261552/

Five of eight top Federal Emergency Management Agency officials came to their posts with virtually <u>no experience</u> in handling disasters and now lead an agency whose ranks of seasoned crisis managers have thinned dramatically since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

FEMA’s top three leaders – Director Michael D. Brown, Chief of Staff Patrick J. Rhode and Deputy Chief of Staff Brooks D. Altshuler – arrived with ties to President Bush’s 2000 campaign or to the White House advance operation, according to the agency. Two other senior operational jobs are filled by a former Republican lieutenant governor of Nebraska and a U.S. Chamber of Commerce official who was once a political operative.
Meanwhile, veterans such as U.S. hurricane specialist Eric Tolbert and World Trade Center disaster managers Laurence W. Zensinger and Bruce P. Baughman – who led FEMA’s offices of response, recovery and preparedness, respectively – have left since 2003, taking jobs as consultants or state emergency managers, according to current and former officials…
But scorching criticism has been aimed at FEMA, and it starts at the top with Brown, who has admitted to errors in responding to Hurricane Katrina and the flooding in New Orleans. The Oklahoma native, 50, was hired to the agency after a rocky tenure as <u>commissioner of a horse sporting group</u> by former FEMA director Joe M. Allbaugh, the 2000 Bush campaign manager and a college friend of Brown’s.

Rhode, Brown’s chief of staff, is a former television reporter who came to Washington as advance deputy director for Bush’s Austin-based 2000 campaign and then the White House. He joined FEMA in April 2003 after stints at the Commerce Department and the U.S. Small Business Administration.

Altshuler is a former presidential advance man. His predecessor, Scott Morris, was a media strategist for Bush with the Austin firm Maverick Media…
But experts inside and out of government said a “brain drain” of experienced disaster hands throughout the agency, <u>hastened in part by the appointment of leaders without backgrounds in emergency management</u>, has weakened the agency’s ability to respond to natural disasters. Some security experts and congressional critics say the exodus was <u>fueled by a bureaucratic reshuffling in Washington in 2003, when FEMA was stripped of its independent Cabinet-level status and folded into the Department of Homeland Security</u>.

Note - Brown was let go, because he couldn’t “handle the job” at the horsey thing. Then it was also aggravated by the “reorganization”.

So back to the OP subject. We have assholes like Rick Santorum calling for fines and punishment for the victims. We have people who agree with it, while ignoring the role that govenment at all levels played in creating the mess and making it worse.
Santorum can go straight to hell. I know people from Louisiana. My SO and his family are from there. Fuck Santorum. I’d like to smash his smug stupid face into bloody pulp.

[eleanorigby]

Moto --you seriously do not see how impracticable your idea is?
Cite–with what? You need a form of some kind to deliver that ticket–or should LEO just X out parking or speeding on an existing form and write in looting (I prefer luteing meself) Or maybe there will be forms pre-printed. I know! Add it to those oh, so important leaflets that trained firefighters are handing out…
Or failure to evacuate? In the waist high water, who will keep the paper dry? If I have to evacuate, I’m taking things I value–I won’t waste two seconds on a piece of paper that I see as the Don Knotts approach to disaster management.

I doubt highly that any court will convict me, either.

Whaddaya gonna do to me? Evict me? Jail me for disregarding a ticket? There are bigger fish to fry and more important (I would say vital) uses for the resources wasted in tracking people like me down.*

Your obsession with “law and order” just doesn’t fly here. As has been said upthread, some problems law/military action just can’t solve.
I don’t pretend to understand your mind set that is hell bent on punishing those who have lost everything. Has it occurred to you that for some, protecting their home and valuables is some kind of core psychological neccessity? It’s not for me, but for someone else it may be. If that person dies in the course of staying, so be it. MOST people DO leave once they see how bad it’s gotten. Denial is a strange thing, but trying to apply civil fines or jail time is no solution.

*actually, I would have left long since. Actually, I live in tornado country–they may be just as deadly, but they’re over in an hour…

[Mr.Moto]

Once again, some of the excellent government officials here in my state have come up with other plans. In addition to organizing transportation and maintaining lists of people with special needs, they have an interesting method to convince people to leave during a mandatory evacuation.

We can learn more by listening to men like Jim Judkins, particularly when he explains the Magic Marker method of disaster preparedness.

Mr. Judkins is one of the officials in charge of evacuating the Hampton Roads region around Newport News, Va. These coastal communities, unlike New Orleans, are not below sea level, but they’re much better prepared for a hurricane. Officials have plans to run school buses and borrow other buses to evacuate those without cars, and they keep registries of the people who need special help.

Instead of relying on a “Good Samaritan” policy - the fantasy in New Orleans that everyone would take care of the neighbors - the Virginia rescue workers go door to door. If people resist the plea to leave, Mr. Judkins told The Daily Press in Newport News, rescue workers give them Magic Markers and ask them to write their Social Security numbers on their body parts so they can be identified.

“It’s cold, but it’s effective,” Mr. Judkins explained.

From here.

[eleanorigby]

Now, that is effective–and it doesn’t involve Barney and his ticket book.
I bet it does work, too.

[tdn]

@SteveG1

Obey the “law”. Punish those who don’t. Here was a case where “the law” was compounding the problem, preventing people from doing what they needed to do.

That’s just the thing. The fine idea is a sound one provided everything goes as planned, and the various governments do an exemplary job handling the evacuation. But as we can all see, the various governments fucked up big time on this. I hold no blame for people who chose to ignore the officials. Sometimes you gotta do the lawful thing, and sometimes you gotta do the non-stupid thing.