Santorum Proposed Penalizing People Who Didn't Evacuate

The BBQ Pit
161

And it would be nice if others would actually look up some data and not just wish for it.

Nice guy that I am, I found a treasure trove of the stuff, in addition to my earlier cites.

Behavioral Analysis from the Mississippi Huricane Evacuation Study (pdf).

Now, according to this study, shelter use is actually decreasing over time. More and more people have friends and family they can turn to. Mobility is increasing as well.

A major problem, though, was with attitudes in the zone. People thought their homes were safer, they cited low probabilities as a reason for staying, in addition to previous false alarms. Many people were afraid that they had waited too long and didn’t want to get stuck on the road when the hurricane hit.

Now, I think local and state officials have to ensure that a warning is as timely as possible while minimizing “false alarms”. Those alarms aren’t false, though. They are of a real storm that happens to go a different direction, and people need to keep that in mind.

This report suggests complacency and inertia in the face of danger, and a belief that one can second guess competent authority. These beliefs can lead to tragedy.

An enforced law might compel people to do what they might not wish to do, but which will be better for everyone in the end.

162

You’re right, and thanks for looking that up.

I only skimmed it, but I didn’t see anything in it about fines. I did see the part where it said that people would be more inclined to evacuate if that were enforced. The question is if fines are an effective method of enforcement.

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Beats truncheons and dogs, IMHO.

164

Missed this one. Sorry.

Our area, while affected by the hurricane, was not subject to an evacuation order. We were warned to take shelter in a low windowless room, though, and this is what we did.

The only damage we had was a single bracket that came off of one downspout. Lots of our neighbors, though, had pretty bad damage, and some parts of our area didn’t get power back for a number of weeks.

Sometimes it is indeed better to stay put, a fact I’m well aware of.

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I think many people wouldn’t care about the fines. I think we should turn off the power, gas, water, sewer and phone to their homes. Then if they still don’t leave, we should flood their homes. Then, after that, if they STILL won’t leave, well, just think of it as evolution in action.

I have no sympathy for the people who are still insisting on staying in New Orleans. They want to stay? Fine, they’re on their own.

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No fines. These people lost their homes, their jobs, their families, their city. There is nothing left to do to them. Levying fines on them now would serve no purpose. But, I guess punishing a city (ex city) full of people who have nothing left is a sterling example of the “Compassionate Conservative”. If some of you are so hot to hand out punishment, how about punishing the bureaucrats who made this situation even worse than it already was.

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<applause> for SteveG1

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Some of you folks are still ducking a pretty basic question here.

Fix everything else, and some people will still refuse to leave their homes. Some of those people will later have to be rescued, at great risk and cost. Others will die a senseless and needless death.

Besides writing laws like the ones I’ve cited, and enforcing them, what can be done about this problem?

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Several people have already answered you. Granted, with not truly great solutions.

170

For starters, clean house in the bureaucracies. Get Homeland Security to do its job of ensuring safety and tackling emergencies, or disband it as a failed “experiment”. Separate FEMA out of the DHS and restore it as a Cabinet level position. Replace the head honchos such as Brown, for gross incompetence bordering on criminal stupidity. Start promoting from within, using qualified and experienced professionals who know the drill, instead of appointing cronies. Stop interfering with groups who do try to help (Red Cross, Walmart, boat owners, the Army, etc) while doing nothing yourself (hear that, FEMA?). Put funds BACK into the mainteneance of the levees and pumps, instead of “diverting” it elsewhere. In other words, do the right thing for once instead of turning everything into more political bullshit. Oh, and tell Santorum to shut the fuck up.

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I see. I suppose four out of five tyrants agree: there’s no public policy problem that can’t be solved if a government is willing to murder its citizens.

172

Listen, fuckwit, I asked you a question.

If all of these things were fixed, SOME PEOPLE STILL WOULDN"T FUCKING LEAVE. I have cited this plain fact more than once now.

So, what, you just don’t give a shit about them? Is that it?

173

I’m surprised you didn’t note that my comment was exactly what Katrina did, and in exactly the order Katrina did it. Now they can leave town safely, and they still won’t.

They need to leave. Period. If they refuse to leave, their lives are in their own hands. If they refuse to leave, what do you suggest?

I’m willing to put someone’s life at risk to go in and rescue them; I’m not willing to put someone’s life at risk once or twice a week to bring them supplies. Do they think they’re going to be able to run down to the 7-11 for beer and cigarets? To King Soopers for food and milk? To Texaco for gas?

The people who are insisting on staying are idiots, and will, sadly, pay the price that all idiots do when it comes down to it.

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Yes, but if they were fixed as per SteveG1 example, then there would be less people that needed rescuing. The vast majority of those who do need rescuing, would be. Some would die, same as now, but not as many as this time.

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OK asshole, what do you want to do? Have the SS gun down anyone who can’t or won’t leave? Or is it enough to drag 'em away in chains and throw them in prison? Right now, there are a shitload of people in New Orleans who are stuck in either the Dome or the Convention Center (what fucking ever). They are not being fed, or taken care of, but they are also not allowed to leave. These are people who did what they were told they should do. Now they are fucked. There are people who were told to board planes, in order to be evacuated to Texas. Somehow, they ended up in Utah instead. What the hell are they gonna do there? Sure will be fun when winter comes. The reason this disaster is so bad is, The Government Fucked Up. Their response was too slow, and was counterproductive. They turned away food, water, medicine, boats, evacuation buses, you name it FEMA blocked it. Now the fuckers are using rescue people to hand out damn leaflets of all things. The levees broke because the Government had not adequately maintained them for years, despite the protestations of the Army Corps of Engineers. No one else was allowed to maintain them either because of the bureaucratic rules. Many people had no way to leave - too old, too frail, no car, whatever. Maybe they simply have no place to go. There will always be people who refuse to leave, or CAN’T leave. You really are a mean spirited bastard aren’t you.

176

My folks are married.

And as I’ve said before, I seem to be the only participant in this thread who has ever participated in a search-and-rescue mission precipitated by a natural disaster. And I was happy to participate, and deeply disappointed that we werent successful. So let’s just assume that I’m not as mean spirited as you might think.

I don’t want to kick anyone when they’re down, but I do want to drive the point home that blowing off these evacuations isn’t smart. One way is to add additional disincentives for doing so, and enforcing them.

Like I said before, our law here in Virginia, which is a coastal state, states that ignoring an order from the governor to evacuate is punishable by up to a year in jail or a fine of up to $2,500, or both.

Is this law unwise? Seems appropriate to me, both in intent and in the severity of the penalty.

177

Again we return to the people that can’t leave, even though it’s been repeatedly stated that this approach wouldn’t apply to them. Why do you even bring them up?

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OK, press charges and bring them to trial. Make them hire lawyers and pay court fees, with the money they don’t have. Levy fines thay won’t be able to pay. That’s easier than fixing the government agencies that helped create and aggravate this disaster, but what’s the point? I wonder how many people would have left, if FEMA had not turned all those boats and buses away, or if taxi drivers were not gouging them for a ride, and so on. What were they supposed to do? Walk? There will always be other people who refuse to leave no matter what, just like Harry Truman - who refused to leave his cats behind during the Mt Saint Helens eruption. There’s nothing you can do about them. Now that everything is gone, there is nothing more you can do to them either. At this point, a jail cell would be an improvement over what they are forced to live in at the Convention Center.

This problem was a long time in the making. Despite warnings, the levees were in a state of long term disrepair, thanks to the federal government. There was obviously no real plan or policy in place for evacuation or rescue, or emergency aid. This whole discussion looks to me like a pile of horse shit, designed to deflect blame away from the bloated incompetent government agencies which fell down on the job, and place it all on the victims. Riddle me this. How many billions were pumped into the Homeland Security/FEMA beast, and how much bang did we get for the buck?

It’s one thing to issue an order to evacuate. It’s another thing to issue the order too late, and then make compliance impossible (FEMA fuckups again). There were no provisions for a place to evacuate to.

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I wonder how many people would have stayed even if New Orleans had the best evacuation plan possible. Certainly, some people couldn’t leave. But there seemed to be quite a few cars covered by water- the owners of those cars had a way out, but apparently stayed anyway.How many chose to stay to avoid the inconvenience of an unnecessary evacuation while counting on rescue attempts in case the worst happened? How many are still staying, even though they can leave?

I don’t want to be punitive, and I don’t think fines would work. They would have to be insanely high to change peoples behavior, considering that the people who stay behind apparently don’t think the worst will happen, and if they are that high, the people will never have to pay them. I’m not happy about what happened in New Orleans, and I don’t think the people deserved it , but the situation in New Orleans is pretty much exactly what will change people’s behavior for the next time- it’s one thing to stay if you figure the worst thing that will happen is you stay in your home with no water and power for a couple of days 'till the government gets things working again. It’s another if you might spend a week or more on your roof with no power, no water, watching bodies float down the street while you wonder if rescuers are going to decide to stop helping because they’re being shot at.

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http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#078194

Fletcher, who spent nearly $1,000 to come down to New Orleans last week and volunteer for rescue missions in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, said he fears his work in Louisiana has been something less than rewarding.

Although he said the need in New Orleans is even greater than in New York four years ago, he calls it shameful that state and federal agencies cannot coordinate their efforts, <U>preventing help from getting to those who need it most</U>.

This past week, he described rushing out with a team “to a spot where we’re told there’s people who need to be rescued, then we sit there for four hours on a bridge waiting to hit the water because someone needs to give the order,” he said. “Then when we do, we’re told, ‘Oops, it was the wrong place.’”

Boat operators have grown especially frustrated, he said, since “they spend every day on the water and they know where there’s people,” but officials don’t rely on them to determine where rescue missions should take place.

Let’s be clear: Officials in New Orleans and elsewhere in Louisiana are hardly blameless in this tragedy. Official preparations for the storm centered on an evacuation plan designed to hasten the flow of private vehicles out of the city. This system worked well, and many more lives would have been lost without it. But as is now obvious, the plan did not take sufficient account of those who would not or could not evacuate on their own.

<U>No federal presence was evident</U> as the storm in the Gulf gathered strength and chugged toward us. If Blanco and Mayor Ray Nagin thought in the days before landfall that the federal government wasn’t pulling its weight, they should have said so loudly and frankly.

In Louisiana, public officials constantly tiptoe around one another’s fragile egos and delicate sensibilities.

Once New Orleans was in ruins, of course, Nagin called upon the Bush administration to <U>stop holding press conferences and start saving lives</U>. On national television Sunday, Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard accused FEMA of <U>turning back Wal-Mart trucks containing drinking water and nixing the Coast Guard’s plans to provide diesel fuel.</U>

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1108268&page=1

FEMA Was Unprepared for Katrina Relief Effort, Insiders Say
Bureaucracy, Budget Cuts Said to Contribute to Slow Response

FEMA was an independent agency, answering directly to the president, until it was folded into the Department of Homeland Security two years ago.
The latest government figures show that 75 cents out of every dollar spent on emergency preparedness goes to anti-terrorism programs, however. Well before Katrina, FEMA insiders were sounding the alarm.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1099765

FEMA Director Takes Heat for Katrina Response
Emergency Response Director Criticized as Unqualified But Earns White House Praise

The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency had virtually <U>no experience with emergency management</U> when he was appointed to the position by President Bush two years ago.
Before becoming part of the agency, Michael Brown was a top official of an Arabian Horse Association. The secretary of that association says it asked him to resign in 2001.

“I can’t see for the life of me how heading a horse association has anything to do with responding to the domestic preparedness,” said Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss.
Brown was recommended for the FEMA position by Joe Allbaugh, his predecessor and long time friend.
In a statement released today, Allbaugh said Brown had worked under him at FEMA for two years.
“He learned the system and was my logical successor,” the statement read.
Allbaugh is now a strategic consultant for private companies that seek government contracts for disaster relief and homeland security work. Allbaugh says that although he is registered as a lobbyist, he does not lobby for government contracts.

A List of Failures
“It would appear that <U>it has become a political patronage office</U>,” commented John Copenhaver, a former regional director at FEMA.
The extensive list of FEMA’s failures over the last week is topped by what happened at the convention center in New Orleans. There, ,U>25,000 people were essentially stranded</U> for four days.
“Don’t you watch television or listen to the radio?” ABC News’ Ted Koppel asked Brown on Thursday’s “Nightline.” "We’ve known about this for days.
Brown failed to have a good answer, “We took awhile. That is true.”
Local officials and private executives claim that <U>under Brown, FEMA refused numerous offers of help that could have saved lives</U>.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/HurricaneKatrina/wireStory?id=1088216

Anger mounted across the ruined city, with thousands of storm victims increasingly hungry, desperate and tired of waiting for buses to take them out.
“We are out here like pure animals. We don’t have help,” the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center, where corpses lay in the open and he and other <U>evacuees complained that they were dropped off and given nothing no food, no water, no medicine</U>….
About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at the convention center <U>to await buses</U> were growing angry and restless in what appeared to be a potentially explosive situation. In hopes of defusing it, the mayor gave them permission to march across a bridge to the city’s unflooded west bank for whatever relief they can find.
In a statement to CNN, he said: “This is a desperate SOS. Right now we are out of resources at the convention center and don’t anticipate enough buses. We need buses. Currently the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we’re running out of supplies.” …
Terry Ebbert, head of the city’s emergency operations, warned that the slow evacuation at the Superdome had become an “incredibly explosive situation,” and he bitterly complained that FEMA was <U>not offering enough help</U>.
“This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace,” he said. “FEMA has been here three days, yet <U>there is no command and control</U>. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can’t bail out the city of New Orleans.”

Three <U>FEMA contractors arrested for looting</U> in Plaquemines Parish
Three Texas truck drivers under contract with the federal government to bring in storm relief supplies for Plaquemines Parish have been arrested for allegedly looting toys, dolls, women’s lingerie and other merchandise from a Belle Chasse Family Dollar store, authorities said.

OUR OPINIONS: An open letter to the President
Dear Mr. President:

We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, “What is not working, we’re going to make it right.” …
<U>Despite the city’s multiple points of entry, our nation’s bureaucrats spent days after last week’s hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city’s stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies</U>.

Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city….
Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach….
State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn’t have but two urgent needs: “Buses! And gas!” Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.

In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn’t known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, “We’ve provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they’ve gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day.”

<B>Lies don’t get more bald-faced than that</B>, Mr. President.

Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, “You’re doing a heck of a job.”

That’s unbelievable….