# Sarah Palin proven right! Government tricks beautiful young mom; imposes 1st Death Panel Verdict **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888 "2010-04-12T22:18:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/641 "2010-04-21T03:44:55Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I probably should just let this mess expire of natural causes, but [here’s a guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12365513&postcount=169) who’s apparently seriously arguing that all taxes are theft, yet even he’s in favor of single-payer health insurance. Not only that, but it seems kinda like he’s insulting **Starving Artist** , there. Having read previous threads of his, I think that’s a mere debating exercise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/642 "2010-04-21T04:33:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nah, this thread ain’t about to die. I’ve been busy and away from the board and will continue to be so for the next several days but I still need to find out what **Bryan Ekers** thought of [that study I linked to](http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Perspectives-on-the-European-Health-Care-Systems) upthread… I wonder if study is not too grand a word, here. After all, the Heritage Foundation is known far more as the intellectual propaganda arm of the Republican Party than as a clearinghouse for academic papers, no? > [@](#): > > …For Members of Congress and state legislators, there are some valuable lessons from the European experience that should be less surprising… > > If you insist, with a straight face, that in a government-run health care system, all of your fellow citizens will be treated equally – regardless of their class, station in life, or disease condition – you are not merely enthusiastic or well intentioned. You are lying… (emphasis added with a sniff of disdain…) Brisk, to be sure, rather less stuffy than one might expect from a “study”. > [@](#): > > ..As might be expected, under this system, there are people who consult with doctors as often as five times a week. This is especially true of older people because they have plenty of time and enjoy being able to talk about their problems with someone… Ummm, yes. Quite. > [@](#): > > …But to develop a well-targeted policy would require investigation and reform, which seems to be unthinkable to those who are currently managing the system… A pity they haven’t the author’s unblinking and non-partisan perspective, so free of political bias. But they do paint a stark picture of the disaster that socialized medicine has unleashed upon the hapless Yurpeens. As well as an entire systems teetering on the brink of catastrophe. About ten years ago. How’s that disaster/catastrophey thing working out for ya? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/643 "2010-04-21T05:24:36Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I probably should just let this mess expire of natural causes, but [here’s a guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12365513&postcount=169) who’s apparently seriously arguing that all taxes are theft, yet even he’s in favor of single-payer health insurance. Not only that, but it seems kinda like he’s insulting **Starving Artist** , there. Lyke eye sed, single paier gust meaks cents. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/644 "2010-04-21T13:33:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nah, this thread ain’t about to die. I’ve been busy and away from the board and will continue to be so for the next several days but I still need to find out what **Bryan Ekers** thought of [that study I linked to](http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Perspectives-on-the-European-Health-Care-Systems) upthread. > > And perhaps to see what he thinks of [this government agency](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/19/veterans-health-claims-menstrual-disorder/) too. That’s not a study. It’s a series of opinion pieces written by some conservative European think tank members. How shocking that the Heritage Foundation picked some conservatives to comment on European health care! As far as the VA goes, it seems to be doing [rather well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Administration#Evaluation), regardless of what your sister’s ex-boyfriend told you. > [@](#): > > A RAND Corporation study in 2004 concluded that the VHA outperforms all other sectors of American health care in 294 measures of quality; Patients from the VHA scored significantly higher for adjusted overall quality, chronic disease care, and preventive care, but not for acute care. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/645 "2010-04-21T13:48:36Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > No – Who! Second Base! ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/646 "2010-04-21T14:01:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Pssst…any of the rest of your are free to look at them and comment as well, though I’m sure I could write your responses and their accompanying denials and excuses and equivocations beforehand myself. How about instead, you address the posts we’ve already made that roundly dispute your assertions? > [@](#): > > Quote: > The quick answer is that the posters here who live under government UHC, primarily from Canada and the U.K. are liberals like the American ones who populate this board and they’re perfectly happy to sacrifice quality, treatment options and timeliness in return for health care they don’t have to worry about paying for. > Can you really be this dense? Of course they pay for it. Seriously, what’s wrong with you? They are all part of one giant health care group, they all pay. And in return they all get coverage. What’s hard to understand about that? Seriously. > > Quote: > Tell that to my friend that just had cutting edge heart surgery (filmed by TLC), no wait to see the doctor, no wait for OR, and didn’t have to lose his house. He’s already back at work. How did he get what was needed without a wait? Triage. Access is based on need, not wallet size. Was his access determined by a death panel? No such thing exists. His doctor made the decisions about his care. Not some insurance company hacks, now that’s a true death panel. > > Liberal? You do know we have a Conservative government in power, right? The Conservatives, Liberals, New Democrats, hell, even the Bloc would not dream of altering our system to resemble yours, in any way whatsoever. A hint of such a thing and they’d never see office again. > Lesser quality care? No sir, cutting edge. Wait time? Didn’t happen. Sucking at the public teat? He paid premiums and they covered him, no public suckage. Government input? None. Didn’t fill out a form, only person who decided anything about his care was his physician. > > Quote: > Further I think they support it so much because most of them are young and haven’t had occasion to need health care that would bring them into conflict with their country’s being able to deliver it. > I cared for my dying Mother In Law, following a devastating stroke, in my home, for 6 yrs. She was provided 2 hrs of home care a day, 7 days a week, in home Dr’s, PT’s, OT’s, Blood suckers, hospital stays, ambulance transfers, whatever she needed. All covered by her insurance. Her provincial drug plan insured she never spent more than $100 a year on her meds. Was this sucking at the public teat? No she paid into the UHC plan her entire life. Again, no suckage. Same as you, she paid insurance, she received coverage when she required it. > > Do you see where the savings are yet? She wasn’t in a nursing home for those 6 yrs, she was with us. Can you begin to imagine, even calculating the costs of providing those services in our home, how much cheaper that was than the cost of housing her in a nursing home would be? > > The only difference is, as no point did she have to worry about being denied coverage, she didn’t have to worry if she changed jobs, or what Doctor she saw or what hospital she went to. Her premiums, for UHC were a fraction of what you are paying, for better coverage. Why? No government/insurance company hacks to deal with, and no profiteering hospitals or executive billion dollar bonus’s, no legions of paper pushers and duplications of office work. Throw in the savings of people getting there health issues dealt with at the onset, instead of only once they become life threatening, and on going care for conditions that require maintenance and that savings is where the funds come from to provide far better care for our seniors than you can hope for with even the highest form of private insurance. > > Your arguments are ridiculous, have been roundly proven to be false, and yet you persist. > > People are sent to the US for services as, at times, it is more cost effective than buying equipment for locations where it is rarely required. There are always people who will complain about wait times. Those are people who feel their need is greater than their physician does. Often old people get a little stiff in the joints and want a new knee or hip. Doctor realizes there is no real need, only a desire. They wait for services, and get a lot of press. These are very simple things to understand if you’d just let go of your political agenda and engage your grey matter. > > You keep accusing us of being Liberal, but Canada has a Conservative government, currently, and often, since UHC was introduced. None have made any effort to roll back UHC. It would cost them their seats. So, it’s not about Liberal or Conservative, it’s about a better way. Lower premiums, everyone is covered, for everything. > > Profiting from health care is akin to profiting from police or fire services in civilized nations of the world. It’s predatory capitalism at it’s worst. That they’ve convinced persons, such as yourself, to willingly drink the Koolaid of conservatism and turn a blind eye to what’s plain for everyone else to see, speaks to the power of the politics of fear. Here’s a clue: when politicians are only preaching fear, they are manipulating you. Much like GWB scared/manipulated the whole world into a war based on a outright lie. The greater evil isn’t what he did but that people like you learned nothing from the experience. That’s some strong Koolaid. You claim to be all about costs but care not that his little foray is still costing your nation exponentially more than UHC would. But he’s not a liberal, so that’s not so evil to you. > Reply With Quote ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/647 "2010-04-22T04:46:38Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > How about instead, you address the posts we’ve already made that roundly dispute your assertions? Or the posts that **SA** ’s made that roundly dispute his assertions? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … the fact that they {private corporations} can be sued … > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sure, it {the government} can be sued. But who among its supplicants can afford to do so. … [RIGHT]{DarkRed}= **CMC** [/RIGHT]So, somehow it costs more to hire a lawyer to sue the government that it does to sue a private corporation, or something? :dubious: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … And when have you ever heard of someone suing the government for denied or altered benefits, much less having prevailed? … Well, > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … I know several people who get SS disability and every one was denied initially after a one-year wait … Every person I know who is currently drawing SS disability had to hire a lawyer in order to make it happen. … The problem is that even if he does address the posts we’ve already made, I’ve no doubt that either a quick search or a short wait will provide us with a post that contradicts whatever he says. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/648 "2010-04-22T06:39:23Z")
Context, **crow** , context. The point is that one can prevail against insurance companies. But I’m sure you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/649 "2010-04-22T09:01:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Context, **crow** , context. > > The point is that one can prevail against insurance companies. > > But I’m sure you knew that. If one has the money and time and has not actually died from denial or delay of treatment, yes one can. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/650 "2010-04-22T10:31:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The point is that one can prevail against insurance companies. Insurance companies don’t care if they get sued for denying benefits. The worst that can happen is they will be forced to pay the benefits that they should have paid in the first place. They know that it is a net gain to deny benefits, because most people can’t afford to sue, or won’t live long enough without treatment to see the end of litigation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/651 "2010-04-22T13:26:24Z")
Insurance is one of those backward industries where it’s profitable to _delay_ delivery. I’m not shocked at all that they exploit this to the full. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/652 "2010-04-22T14:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > How about instead, you address the posts we’ve already made that roundly dispute your assertions? See, by ignoring this, you show people that you really aren’t about debate, you _do_ move the goal posts, and you _aren’t_ worth engaging with. See, I didn’t believe that about you, just because others said it was so. That’s why I just kept engaging with you. But I see now they were right on the money and you’re ‘poor me, I’m just smarter than all of you’, shtick is really too lame for words. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/653 "2010-04-22T14:09:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Context, **crow** , context. > > The point is that one can prevail against insurance companies. > > But I’m sure you knew that. Are you Erin Brockovich? Or that kid from the Rainmaker? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/654 "2010-04-22T14:36:48Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Are you Erin Brockovich? Or that kid from the Rainmaker? That kid died before he got treatment, though he **did** win the case. Or at least his family won in suing for wrongful death. What a glorious pyrrhic victory! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/655 "2010-04-22T14:43:22Z")
Clearly we need more inspiring fictional examples, like Tom Hanks in _Philadelphia_. He lived long enough to see his case decided in his favour, though he did get to enjoy the big dramatic courtroom collapse scene first. Granted, it was about wrongful dismissal and not health insurance, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/656 "2010-04-22T19:10:44Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Insurance companies don’t care if they get sued for denying benefits. The worst that can happen is they will be forced to pay the benefits that they should have paid in the first place. Then why do they ever pay anything? And yet they pay well enough and often enough that virtually everybody I’ve ever known personally who has to have something done doesn’t think twice about insurance paying for it, and doctors and hospitals often refuse to take patients who don’t have it. Plus, insurance companies operate on a three to seven percent profit margin - comparable to your neighborhood grocery store. So all this tells me that insurance companies pay pretty well and often and that all the whinging around here about how they don’t is either inaccurate, exceptional, or, shall we say, less than honest. And **Bryan** , I’ve been waiting to see what you thought about the Heritage Foundation piece and the VA office I linked to. Good point about fictional examples, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/657 "2010-04-22T19:28:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And **Bryan** , I’ve been waiting to see what you thought about the Heritage Foundation piece and the VA office I linked to. :dubious: > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As far as the VA goes, it seems to be doing [rather well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Administration#Evaluation), regardless of what your sister’s ex-boyfriend told you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/658 "2010-04-22T19:46:50Z")
Hey, **Guin** , I posted a couple of pretty good cites to illustrate the problem I have with the government being in charge of my and my family’s health care. One pertains to problems in Europe and the other to the VA here in the U.S. Notice how, even though a couple of posters paid lip service to handwaving them away, they were largely ignored? This is what happens with cites around here that fly in the face of the herd mind around here, and it’s why I generally refuse cite demands. Cites accomplish nothing. We can throw cites at each other till the sun goes down in it won’t make one. bit. of. difference. in how anyone thinks. Cites in line with the herd mind will instantly be regarded as probative and cites opposing the board’s herd mentality will be instantly dismissed. So the thing to do is argue things based on what life experience, common sense, and innate judgement tell you is right, and so that’s largely what I do here. My experience in life, everything I’ve heard first hand and much of what I’ve read, lead me to view government and the way it operates in a very negative light, thus I don’t want it making health care decisions for myself and my family or other people I care about. I also believe that it’s a bad thing to be relying on the government to provide for us in the first place. William F. Buckley had several things to say that I think sum up my view of government quite well. He said: “There is an inverse relationship between reliance on the state and self-reliance.” “The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry.” “Government can’t do anything for you except in proportion as it can do something to you.” I believe that these are the kinds of things which ought to be being discussed in regard to what kind of government the country wants, rather than the typical one around here in which “conservatives want to see people dying in the streets”. There are many, many ways that the small number among the 15% who don’t have coverage could be met. After all, we largely solved the problem of hunger with food stamps, and we managed it without the govenment getting involved and telling grocery stores which foods they could sell and what they had to charge for it, and which foods we could have in which amounts and with a constantly changing place in line to get into the store in the first place. This country does not need the U.S. government to take over it’s health care system. It also does not need to live under the tyranny of a nanny state government which seeks to create a benefactor/supplicant relationship between itself and the populace. After all, most people love their parents but they still prefer living on their own. So why enter into a parental relationship with a nanny-state government that doesn’t know you from Adam and cares about you even less, which is hidebound and bureaucratic and makes no provision for exceptional or unusual cases or circumstances, and literally holds your fate in its hands? These are the things we need to be discussing, and not whether some VA office in another town works better than the VA office in the cited town. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/659 "2010-04-22T20:00:35Z")
Fortunately, the insurance industry never drops customers in need of care. Oh, wait. **“WellPoint Routinely Targets Breast Cancer Patients”** [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=10446307](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=10446307) ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888/660 "2010-04-22T20:06:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > \we largely solved the problem of hunger with food stamps, and we **managed it without the govenment getting involved…** emphasis mine Ahh, the stupid just gets better and better!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-proven-right-government-tricks-beautiful-young-mom-imposes-1st-death-panel-verdict/535888.md?page=34)