I’m generally Anti-Tumbril but would be willing to make an exception in SA’s case.
Whereas *you *were the inspiration for the frustrated cry that “the truth has a liberal bias.” Which is why *you *can never give cites for anything and why you always have some bullshit unsupported anecdote or gosh-golly gut feeling to refute any actual data.
So basically this is Starving Artist’s version of Lekatt’s Thread?
Well, quite, indeed the point of the free market is the most efficient rationing of scarce resources. Only guaranteed to be best under conditions that will never be encountered in reality, but there we are.
I am taking no sides, I don’t really care what US health care system is one way or the other. Just trying to keep things accurate 
Better define that word “efficient” for us, if you mean it in a larger sense than the Econ-101 one.
I think you are because to a large extent we’re comparing apples to oranges with regard to the two systems. For one thing, we have the government-mandated but unfunded requirement that hospitals provide emergency room treatment of all comers without regard to ability to pay. The hospitals then have to charge exorbitant amounts to those who can pay in order to be able to stay in business. This is why we have things like broken arms costing $20,000 to fix.
And how do we compare the value of a system that provides immediate, high-quality care paid for privately with a system that provides delayed and comparatively mediocre care paid for publicly?
Here’s an article you might find informative. Admittedly it’s nine years old and published by The Heritage Foundation, but you seem like a reasonable person and not likely to think that things in Europe have suddently taken a 180 in the last nine years, and that as long as the information is accurate, it shouldn’t matter where it comes from. I think you will find it illuminating with regard to some of my concerns and view of government run health care.
And now I have real life concerns to attend to and will be gone for most of the rest of the day. Take care, Hector. (;))
And on preview:
That would be “tumbrel”, Bridgette.
And again, Angry Lurker, our system does not “ration” health care. In the interest of keeping things accurate that needs to be kept in mind. People like Elvis attempt to engage in such verbal sleight-of-hand because they think it will offset concerns about genuine rationing of the type that goes on in UHC countries.
ON WHAT PLANET DOES THE FUCKING AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM NOT RATION CARE???
runs screaming from the thread to bang head against wall at frustration with lies
You seem to suggest that we’re making fun of you and calling you names because we’re liberals, you are once again wrong. We’re making fuck of you and calling you names for two reasons: 1) It’s the pit and we’re allowed. 2.) You are a fucking asshole that started a pit thread using an article that proves exactly the opposite of what you thought it did. And even after being shown that you continue to say stupid and wrong things.
And again you manged to dig deeper into your ass and pull out more shit, how is there anything left up there? Not being able to afford insurance is only half of the problem. The other half is not being eligible for insurance. How do you not realize that? The woman in your article cannot get private health insurance. And even if she had a million dollars to afford a policy, it would EXCLUDE anything to do with her cancer. So that means no procedures.
And in 3 years, when this poor woman develops cancer again, what the fuck is she supposed to do? How the hell was it her irresponsibility that gave her cancer, and will give it to again in a couple of years if she survives that long. If UHC is so bad, explain to us how a privatized system would have kept this woman alive?
How are you so fucking stupid as to not see what is going on?
Wow that was stupid. What am I supposed to do, find an example of conservatives killing people to counter that with? Is that the game we’re playing?
No, I guess you win again. A liberal group did something in France a long time ago so now no one can be liberal.
READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE
The PRIVATE hospital uses Medicaid to shield it from liability. That is who is to blame. That is what happens in a privatized system. A private hospital gets to make the decision if it’s worth risking liability to save a woman’s life.
It wasn’t the government, it was the hospital, how can you not see that? Did the government touch in a bad place as a child? How is it that your hatred of the government let’s you see past the responsibility of the hospital and put it all on “the government?” Did you not read the article you linked to? Here, let me show you the relevant quote:
If this woman had never been involved with Medicaid the same thing would have happened, but for some reason you’re okay with all the other people this hospital denies to treat. Fuck you are stupid. I bet you got to this point and still think it was the government, have you read the article yet? Do you want me to post the relevant statement?
You stupid fucking moron, there is so much data out there, much of it has been shown to you. UHC isn’t a secret. The evil Canadian and provincial governments are obsessed with wait-times, the voting public is obsessed with wait times. If you want genuine facts all you have to do is look it up or read one of the thousands of cites that people show you. They aren’t hard to come by at all, it seems they’re just hard for YOU to come by.
No, they aren’t ignored at all. Canadians are well aware of our problem with wait times. We’re aware of a lot of problems because our government studies the problems and attempts to, get this, improve the system. Do you realize that within Canada right now people are working to improve health care? Did you think they juts implement it and then leave it to run? Fuck you are stupid. Why are you still talking about “problems in the Canadian and U.K. systems” when you know absolutely nothing about them. And then dismiss those that do as, "
So some how YOU know more about the Canadian and UK system, than the people in Canada or the UK. And YOU are a better judge of their system then they are. But at the same time THEY can’t accurately judge your system. Is that what you think?
Only to you because you don’t read them. Like the article you posted, but didn’t read. You still think it was the government’s fault because you still haven’t read it. As far as I can tell you read someone else’s blog, and tried to pass it off as your own.
Those aren’t even real life examples, you’re just making shit up. And when presented with a real life example like the one in the article you linked to, you completely missed the part where the private hospital refused her treatment. You’d be amazed what you can find on the internets these days.
Yes, we do. Are you not aware of the problem with wait times in Canada? If this information wasn’t available, wouldn’t you think that UHC is great?
And since, as you say, the information isn’t available, how can you be sure that bad things happen in a single-payer system?
You were either lying then or lying now, which is it?
If you have no data or studies to say that people in countries with UHC have “died due to lengthy wait times, inadequate facilities and equipment, and denials resulting in death” then why would you think it occurs? Is it just your hunch? Or another example of the government trying to trick us?
For the purposes of this post, please provide a definition for rationing. Then please provide cites for five posters who a.) will sign on to your definition, and; b.) have denied that it takes place in UHC systems.
Failing that, please put those goalposts back where you found them.
Well, Canadians have emergency rooms, too, so, I don’t understand the relevance except, possibly, that this shows the American system has a major flaw the Canadian system does not.
I suppose, arguably, Canadians don’t need as many emergency rooms per capita because we have fewer violent crimes, but that’s one of those cultural factors I mentioned in my last post.
Well, life expectancy, infant mortality… and first we’d have to establish by what metric the terms “high-quality” and “mediocre” are designated. If your argument is that some percentage of the American population gets excellent care while the entire Canadian population gets acceptable care (additionally, wealthy Canadians can indeed get excellent care), then I’ll gladly agree. That percentage of Americans, as I understand it, is pretty variable, and a fair number of Americans are finding themselves on the wrong side of it, hence the impetus for change.
I’ll read it, report back.
There he goes again. Assuming that health care in the US is immediate and high-quality but that health care in every other industrialized nation is delayed and comparatively mediocre.
No cites, no facts, just more bullshit based on his feelings and something he might have heard once from someone he might have known.
But there is an answer to the “how do we compare.” There are many ways to compare.
For example, how many people in the US have access to immediate and high-quality care vs how many people have access to what YOU describe as delayed and comparatively mediocre care in Canada? In Canada 100% of our citizens/residents have access to health care. If the answer is less 100% for the US, I’d say we win. Who the fuck cares how fast or great it is if you don’t have any access to it?
Secondly, you could look at cost. How much does it cost for immediate and high-quality care vs delayed and comparatively mediocre? The average American spends over $8000 a year on health care. The US spends more per capital than any other country (15% of GDP vs 10% in Canada). Is getting it immediately worth that much to you?
Third, you could look at a variety of metrics like life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. If the US outspends everyone else, and has the best health care in the world, shouldn’t their health stats be the best in the world? 15% vs 10% of GDP is a lot of money. As a comparison, the US spends more on it’s military that every other country combined, so you’d hope it was pretty fucking good right? You wouldn’t want to lose a war to a guy with a couple of old artillery shells and a cell phone.
So how does the US compare with respect to those stats? I’m curious, does anyone know?
Seriously Starving Artist, do you have some sort of proof that US health care is the best in the world? Do you feel you’re getting a good value for your money? Does $20,000 for a broken arm seem like a worth while price tag?
Nothing made me laugh more than the first time I got to wait in the ER of one of these immediate and high-quality US hospitals, only to realize that 3 hours in an American hospital feels just like 3 hours in a Canadian hospital.
Damn that is a stupid thing to say. So rationing is something UHC does, but not something the US does. Got it.
Okay, forget what I said before about wishing people would stop quoting him, because this is just too delicious:
He really said that? Please tell me that there’s a larger context to it.
Otherwise, is it permitted to buy a custom title for somebody else? Does Starving Artist already have a custom title? 'Cos if he doesn’t, and it is, I think that should be it.
Nothing like a little truth in labeling. Then we could all put him on ignore and not have to worry about what innocent bystanders and lurkers might read.
P.S.
Don’t you understand? It’s rationing when it’s issued to the recipient. When they pay for it, it’s portion control.
:rolleyes:
You know what would solve that problem?
National Health Care.
Then people could actually see a doctor before the problem got so bad they couldn’t ignore it any longer. That might even save us money.
See how that works?
Yurp. Fingers in ears. Unwillingness or inability to deal with objective facts and opposing opinions based on such facts.
He doesn’t even think the facts are available! And then claims that there is a dearth of information.
Ha, portion control, now there is something Americans need, and would probably cut your health care expenses in half.
Just kidding Americans, I love my 12oz burger with the bucket of fries (and a little 2oz cup of cole slaw). I just spent a month in Australia wondering when the waitress was going to bring the other half of my meal (although I did drop 8 pounds).
Well, Starving Artist, I’ve waited patiently for three days now and I guess I’m forced to conclude that my question was too difficult for you. To reiterate, here it was:
I realize that this was unfair because I stipulated that it had to be from a reputable source and you’d have to actually employ a moderate amount of research skills.
So scrap that question. I have a better one for you. This one requires NO research outside the SDMB. None whatsoever!
I want you to link me to a single poster with over 100 posts to his or her name who we can verify lives in a country with UHC and whose stated opinion is that he or she would prefer the US’s version of healthcare.
Now, I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to throw out that old chestnut that people living in a particular country tend to prefer their own version of health care because that’s all they know. That’s fine. I’m not asking you to show me an overwhelming majority or a significant minority. I’m asking for one. Again. One person.
Here. I’m even going to help you out in your research by linking to a thread I created yesterday.
As of right now there are 32 respondents who live in countries with UHC and not a single one would prefer any version of the US’s health care system. But I’m sure if we waited long enough, someone will pop up.
Let’s wait together, shall we?
The challenge here is to compare apples to some kind of fruit.
If I was super wealthy, I’d prefer to have an American system where I can get a bone marrow transplant any time I want. But with that said, if I was super wealthy I’d rather live in Canada and just fly to the US in my spaceship when ever I felt like I wanted a bone marrow transplant.
Under an income of about $200,000 you are better off in Canada, paying taxes and getting our mediocre care. If you consider that the average American spends $8,000 a year, you’ll actually be paying less at the end of the year. And if you suddenly find that you can’t get a bone marrow transplant as fast as you want, just do what the Americans do: mortgage your house, sell everything you own, and pay for one in the US (assuming the hospital will allow you to).
The US style of health care is really great and really cheap if you’re healthy and rich. My wife (a Canadian) loves it because she hasn’t needed it. So on paper it looks like we’re saving a couple thousand each year compared to our siblings in Canada. But what she is only now realizing is that all the money we’re saving doesn’t go towards trips or boats, it sits in a money market account ready for when something happens. I can’t even risk investing it because it has to be there when something goes wrong. One by one our friends have started to realize that playing soccer costs about $12,000 a year, and a ski trip is about $6000.
One of many things that Starving Artist doesn’t realize is that when you’re below an income level of about $80,000 a year things start to get REALLY bad for you in the US, but stay the same for you in Canada. Suddenly that $8000 a year is 10% of your pre-tax income. A person making $40,000 is paying 20% of his pre-tax income to medical expenses. The corollary to this is that in Canada, as you pass the $200,000 market the tax burden goes up faster than in the US. So a millionaire in the US might still be paying $8000 a year for health expenses, but the Canadian millionaire will be paying more.
"Well, Reverend Morrison… in your policy…in your policy… here we are. It states quite clearly that no claim you make will be paid. You unfortunately plucked for our Never-Pay Policy, which if you never claim is very worthwhile – but, uh, you had to claim – and there it is.”
- —Mr. Devious*
heh-heh… where’s your Messiah now?
Update: The ratio of “live in UHC and want UCH to: Live in UHC and want American style”
Is now 40: 0
But I guess we are all just brainwashed, stupid, liberal douches, or have never had (or known anyone who had) any health problems.