Sarah Palin proven right! Government tricks beautiful young mom; imposes 1st Death Panel Verdict

[Starving_Artist]

@emacknight

You posted the notes from a conservative lecture series, first calling it an “article” then referring to it as a study.

Big deal.

@emacknight

If the notes are 9 years old, why haven’t they done one recently to show how much worse things have gotten?

Probably felt: a.) it wasn’t necessary since government agencies rarely change for the better, especially in as little as ten years; b.) perhaps lacked the funding; c.) perhaps they lacked access; d.) were busy with something else; etc., etc., etc. I could probably run through the entire alphabet listing reasons, but you get the idea.

@emacknight

I would suspect that if things got really bad they’d be excited to trumpet the news.

Do you think the piece I linked to amounted to “trumpeting”? I’d be more inclined to think they’d simply publish it…if they had it…which they may not have for one of the reasons I listed above, or which they may have but I simply haven’t found.

@emacknight

Until shown otherwise, I’m going to concluded that they tried, and found that things didn’t get worse, but actually got better.

Well, if you want to adopt such a blatantly self-serving conclusion and one that flies in the face of all that we know about how governments operate, it is your privilege to do so.

@emacknight

f you want to know about Canada, consider reading through some of the history. Oddly enough, it was built because private industry failed to provide enough doctors in rural areas. The problems we faced over the past two decades were not because of failures in the system, they were the result of some pretty crazy deficit spending between the 70s and 80s.

Do you have any idea of what you have just admitted? You yourself have just pointed out exactly what the problem is with putting government in charge of things. Government will do what it sees fit and if that leaves you sucking hind tit when you need health care, well, them’s the breaks. I don’t happen to want my and my family’s health care dependent upon how the U.S. government decides to allocate its money. It has gotten us into horrendous debt, costing us approx. $400 billion dollars a year in interest alone. It has borrowed against Social Security to obtain funds to spend elsewhere and is now making noises about cutting back on Social Security benefits in order to try to bring the budget under control. Etc., etc., ad infinitum! The U.S. government can’t run itself responsibly or well, so why the hell would I want it running health care for myself and my family?

@emacknight

Instead of continuing with deficit spending indefinitely, the federal government made pretty dramatic cuts to social programs to, get this, balance the budget.

Cool! That way when you lay dying in a hospital bed waiting your turn for that rationed heart bypass operation that never comes, you and your family and loved ones can all console yourself with the fact that your government is finally taking steps to operate responsibly.

@emacknight

Can you imagine, a country with balanced budget. What do you suppose that would be like?

I suppose I’d think it was pretty great…if I or someone else in my family wasn’t having to suffer or do without needed health care as a result. I wouldn’t think it was so great if I was having to pay for past governmental irresponsibility now with my own health care…and of course that is exactly what I’d be doing.

So once again, we have a perfect illustration of why having to depend on the government sucks, and a perfect illustration of why I object to the very idea. Ask current Social Security beneficiaries and those about to retire what they think of the fact that their benefits (and for many, their very ability to pay their bills) are dependent upon the whims of government…and a government that has already robbed its Social Security coffers to begin with.

@emacknight

Now that the budget has been balanced health care has become the main priority, money has poured back into it, and it is steadily improving.

Wow! How great! After a prolonged period of government-created health care suckage, things are now “improving”. Golly! I bet you hope they will be fully improved by the time you need care and that the cycle of irresponsible governmental behavior that caused all the suckage in the first place won’t have started back up by then either.

I can see now why you’re such an avid supporter of Canadian health care; it’s because you can’t think straight.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Starving_Artist

I can see now why you’re such an avid supporter of Canadian health care; it’s because you can’t think straight.

Yeah, emack… smarten up!

[Algorithm]

@Starving_Artist

Well, if you want to adopt such a blatantly self-serving conclusion

Oh, like this one?

@Starving_Artist

Probably felt: a.) it wasn’t necessary since government agencies rarely change for the better, especially in as little as ten years;

@Starving_Artist

After a prolonged period of government-created health care suckage, things are now “improving”.

Funny how everyone who’s experienced both prefers the Canadian suckage to the system we’ve got here in the States.

[Starving_Artist]

@Algorithm

There shouldn’t be any rules that would disqualify one from Medicaid?

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

I clearly said that there should be systems in place to deal with exceptional individual needs, such as one government agency offering you benefits that have the effect of canceling out insurance from another government agency which you need in order to save your life. If government is going to be in charge of our health care, systems need to be in place - systems like, oh, I don’t know…exist in most businesses! - where problems can be corrected and customers kept happy. If I buy widget and get overcharged or get the wrong one, I can simply return it and a human being with a brain and an interest in keeping its customers happy will exchange it or refund the amount needed to correct the problem on the spot. A similar transaction on the part of the government would require reams of paperwork and months of time, and then more paperwork and more months of time if the exchange or refund were in error itself.

Again, government just plain sucks when it comes to doing anything in any kind of speedy or efficient manner, and if you happen to fall outside it’s one-size-fits-all rules and regulations (or fall short because of its irresponsible spending habits), well, that’s just tough shit for you…as Diana Smith found out when she asked for the simple remedy of cancelling her new benefits and having her Medicaid reinstated.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Algorithm

Funny how everyone who’s experienced both prefers the Canadian suckage to the system we’ve got here in the States.

Well, anyone who’s experienced the Canadian system has had their thinking warped by it, obviously.

[Algorithm]

@Starving_Artist

If I buy widget and get overcharged or get the wrong one, I can simply return it and a human being with a brain and an interest in keeping its customers happy will exchange it or refund the amount needed to correct the problem on the spot.

You know perfectly well things don’t always work out perfectly “on the spot” every time something goes wrong in a business transaction. Sometimes, things take time to correct. Sometimes months. Yes, that happens even when dealing with businesses. They aren’t perfect. Try disputing a bill on an open account with a phone or utility company. It can take a long fucking time to get things fixed properly.

@Starving_Artist

A similar transaction on the part of the government would require reams of paperwork and months of time, and then more paperwork and more months of time if the exchange or refund were in error itself.

You’re just making shit up to fit your idiotic fantasy of perfect and benevolent businesses sucking your cock just so you won’t, powerful single consumer you are, go to one of their millions of widget competitors in the ideal market.

@Starving_Artist

well, that’s just tough shit for you…as Diana Smith found out when she asked for the simple remedy of cancelling her new benefits and having her Medicaid reinstated.

The article is sadly lacking in detail, but sometimes people (even private employees!) are asked something they’d love to provide, but don’t have the authority. Or are bound by rules (businesses have rules too!) that they don’t have the authority to break or think they have to follow a time-consuming process (businesses have process too!) to get it done.

And of course, it’s totally lost on you that this woman would simply have died months ago, and you’d have never heard of her, if she didn’t have the government program you hate so fucking much to save her life in the first place.

[Starving_Artist]

@Algorithm

Funny how everyone who’s experienced both prefers the Canadian suckage to the system we’ve got here in the States.

Hmmm…now there’s a perplexing observation.

Oh, wait…no, it’s not!

This board skews young. And it skews liberal. And it skews, how shall we say…financially challenged, in the main.

And so we have people like emacknight who most likely is very young, has had no need of hip replacement or heart bypass surgery, and who has very little to no money, and who, because of his liberal mindset, thinks government ought to be running things in the first place. And so he comes down here and has to actually pay someone when he gets a cold or needs a shot or needs his broken arm set, and he thinks it sucks here because in Canada he could just go bopping into the doctor’s office and get whatever he needs without having to pay for it other than through his taxes.

But he doesn’t experience the immediate care that 85% of the middle-aged and older people get in this country by virtue of the private insurance. And he doesn’t experience the shots or broken arms that get set just like they do in Canada, right away and with little cost, to the 85% of Americans with good coverage.

And he either isn’t dealing with a chronically underfunded and stretched to the max health care systerm burdened by the whims and vagaries of its own government.

I would imagine that if the situation were reversed and someone here with good coverage and immediate access to quality, properly funded health care were to find themselves in Canada and in dire need of hip or knee replacement or perhaps a pacemaker or non-life-threatening surgery and being forced to live with their condition for months on end before getting the care they need, they would state quite clearly and forcefully that Canada’s system sucks and ours is much better.

So the fact that people on this board who are predominantly young, liberal and broke happen to like a government system that’s “free”, even if they have to wait months on end to get it, and who think it’s just great that their government is now finished with having suddenly decided to tighten its belt and the bad things about its health care system are finally going to “get better”, really means next to nothing in terms of which system is better.

And now, given that I’ve done the right thing and answered EP’s nagging post plus a couple of others in full detail, and given that you people can and will split hairs and equivocate all night and I have other things to do, I must bow out for the night.

Goodnight, Hector! Goodnight, Zoe! Goodnight, emacknight…and hey, watch that spelling and word useage, mmkay? And goodnight, all.

Cheers.

[Starving_Artist]

@Algorithm

And of course, it’s totally lost on you that this woman would simply have died months ago, and you’d have never heard of her, if she didn’t have the government program you hate so fucking much to save her life in the first place.

I’ve said repeatedly around here, including at least a couple times in this very thread, that I have no problem with government programs to care for the truly needy, as this woman clearly is. What I object to is a total or almost total takeover of the nation’s health care system which brings everyone’s health care under the control of the U.S. government. I have no problem at all with the assistance that Diana Smith received.

[Bryan_Ekers]

How old does emac have to be before his opinions count?

[Starving_Artist]

Remember what I said about splitting hairs and equivocating?

Congratulations on being the first. After all, it’s important to focus on the more minor aspects of what I’ve said. Otherwise people might pay attention to the meat of what I’ve said.

And now I’m out of here.

[Bryan_Ekers]

The meat of what you said is that the opinions of certain people are to be ignored, and that age (at least in emac’s case) is a reason why.

Maybe you’re too old to maintain focus.

[Starving_Artist]

@Bryan_Ekers

The meat of what you said is that the opinions of certain people are to be ignored, and that age (at least in emac’s case) is a reason why.

No, the meat of what I said was that government sucks at running things, and for the reasons I listed.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Starving_Artist

No, the meat of what I said was that government sucks at running things, and for the reasons I listed.

But people who point out that this is not always accurate, or is not the only relevant element, get their opinions ignored, and that age (at least in emac’s case) is a reason why.

[Gyrate]

Yes, Starving Artist, we get that you don’t like the government. But as I’ve said before, all you’ve got to support your views are…your views. You’ve even handwaved away one of your own sources (and you only had two) when it was revealed to be neither an article nor a study, nor remotely current. Yep, we’re the biased, intellectually dishonest ones. Not the guy who has nothing but the voices in his own head to support his argument. Nope, it’s us.

[Canadjun]

@Starving_Artist

Hmmm…now there’s a perplexing observation.

Oh, wait…no, it’s not!

This board skews young. And it skews liberal. And it skews, how shall we say…financially challenged, in the main.

I am neither young nor financially challenged, although I do consider myself liberal (I’m puzzled why “liberal” seems to be a dirty word south of the border). I won’t bother to repeat my details since they are further back in the thread, but UHC has certainly worked fine for me.

[El_Kabong]

@Starving Artist

Cool! That way when you lay dying in a hospital bed waiting your turn for that rationed heart bypass operation that never comes, you and your family and loved ones can all console yourself with the fact that your government is finally taking steps to operate responsibly.

What’s the survival rate on heart bypasses? Must be low, I’d think.

[OttoDaFe]

@Canadjun

I am neither young nor financially challenged, although I do consider myself liberal (I’m puzzled why “liberal” seems to be a dirty word south of the border). I won’t bother to repeat my details since they are further back in the thread, but UHC has certainly worked fine for me.

Since SA will likely handwave your opinion away because you’ve been injected Teh Evil UHC Serum while undergoing Canadian health care, allow me to chime in. I am:[ul]
[li]US “bawn ‘n’ bred”;[/li][li]Not young (I can draw Social Security, but not Medicare yet);[/li][li]Gainfully employed — in other words sometimes I really am too busy to post;[/li][li]Not financially challenged — except, oddly enough, in the sense that I’m still dealing with the fallout from my daughter’s extended hospitalization several years ago;[/li][li]Oh, yeah . . . liberal.[/li][/ul]Admittedly, the last item voids most anything I have to say (and my obvious senility takes care of the rest); but the point stands that I don’t fit in SA’s despised demographic, I have considerable experience as a consumer of “the finest healthcare system in the world,” and I definitely support UHC.

[Fear_Itself]

@Starving_Artist

This board skews young. And it skews liberal. And it skews, how shall we say…financially challenged, in the main.

Another **Starkers **truism with no visible means of support. While there are a lot of liberals, I see no evidence that they are predominantly young or poor. Of course, if you are 65, 40 seems like an adolescent, so I guess that depends on your point of view. As for poor, I think think that’s mostly in your head; you read a post or two from a lefty who is broke, and you erroneously extrapolate that to all liberals. Once again, you are living inside your own head.

[emacknight]

@Starving_Artist

Oh, okay!

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
This woman in your OP earned enough money and benefits so that she was over the cutoff $$ amount for Medicaid. Why exactly should a government worker step in to help this particular woman out…

To save her life.
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
and break the rules?

There should be no rules he would have to break in the first place.

There you go, you just described UHC. Remove the silly income cutoffs for Medicaid, and removed the age restrictions from Medicare. Diane Smith was doing just fine on government health care until she made more money than allowed. Remove that rule and she’d still be doing just fine.

If you don’t want government to have complete control, don’t give it. Learn from Canada’s mistake and make sure to allow both public and private health care. Just like running public and private education.

@Starving_Artist

Look at what happens in communist countries where you have government central planning determining what foods and textiles are produced and distributed. You wind up with bananas being over-produced and things such as wheat being under-produced, with the result that markets are flooded for months with more bananas than people need or want, and with shortages of bread that require people to stand in line for hours waiting for a loaf or two.

Well, the government has done a great job getting me a left shoe, I don’t see the problem.

Oh ya, that’s fucking retarded. We’re not, nor ever will, seek to emulate a communist country. Not everything is a slippery slope. We’ve done just fine having a public education system.

You also need to realize that UHC isn’t a communist style system of delivery. It’s a communist style system of funding. There isn’t a central planning commission that decides medical treatments on a case by case basic. Please for the love of all that is holy just understand that. It is NOT a system of centralized planning. The boogie man you describe does not and will not exist.

@Starving_Artist

Government ought to be set up so that there is flexibility and systems in place that will allow for common-sense solutions to individual problems. But of course this leads to a problem for government because it simply can’t have all its minions running around doing whatever they think is best in any given situation. So it simply issues dictates that everyone has to live under, with the result being that people like Diana Smith get told in effect,

No, the solution is actually quite simple. Don’t set up the system like that. You want flexible, common-sense solutions, let the doctors decide treatment, and let the government pay for it through taxation.

@Starving_Artist

“So sorry, but death for you!”, when to any thinking individual the solution is painfully obvious - simply let her cancel her son’s new disability benefits and reinstate her Medicaid coverage…and do it quickly so she can have the surgery she so badly needs on schedule as previously arranged.

What you are describing there isn’t a “government” problem. If you private/group medical insurance cancels your policy, they aren’t going to run to re-instate it so you can get surgery.

How about instead we have a system where no one can get dropped, and everyone is covered? That seems painfully obvious to me, but escapes you.

The thing you are so scared of happens in both private run systems, and in Medicaid. When ever there is the ability to drop someone, someone will get dropped.

@Starving_Artist

But all that lies far outside the ability of government function. So people whose lives could easily be saved if only someone with a brain and a modicum of decision-making ability could greenlight it wind up dying for no reason other than governmental red tape and inflexibility.

Again, I’m going to say this, everyone with UHC has recognized it is outside of the ability of government to function like that You know what we did? We decided, and this will sound weird at first, we decide to let doctors make the decisions. I know that seems weird, perhaps it’s a Canadian thing, our doctors have brains and a modicum of decision-making ability. Government red tape and inflexibility sucks, let’s avoid it by keeping government out of the decision process.

The system you are looking for is UHC. You don’t know it because you created a made-up version (or listened to someone else’s version). If you actually knew how UHC worked you wouldn’t say the things you’ve said. So why not go and at least try to know what a single-payer system looks like.

@Starving_Artist

And again I assert that the government’s response to Diana Smith amounts in virtually every way to a death panel decision to the effect that she should be left to die. It was their system, their regulations, their limits, and their red tape that all resulted in the loss of her coverage and inabilty to correct and reinstate it. Her situation is a classic, textbook example of governmental indifference and inflexibility in the face of dire, life-threatening need, and a perfect example also of why I absolutely do not want the government of the United States having control over my or my family’s health care.

Well, it’s a perfect example if you willingly ignore the private hospital. If you had the stones to include the private hospital you’d see THAT has the real death panel. A private hospital that wouldn’t assume the liability for her treatment, and denied her.

This article isn’t the example you’d like it to be.

[emacknight]

@Starving_Artist

I can see now why you’re such an avid supporter of Canadian health care; it’s because you can’t think straight.

@Bryan_Ekers

Yeah, emack… smarten up!

Stupid government provided Lasik, I should have been able to see that the Heritage Foundation knew in advance that UHC would continue to suck after 10 years. Although traditionally I’d say that shows some serious fucking bias. Damn those guys are smart, and not biased or lazy in any way. Stupid me for trying to show how Canada’s health care has improved over the past 10 years, we we all KNOW government can’t improve.

If you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go tell my friends and family that they’re supposed to be dead now. That their by-pass operations, knee replacements, and chemo-therapies didn’t happen.

Wait a second, holy shit, I just stumbled on to the greatest medical discovery of all time! UHC is a massive placebo! There wasn’t Avastin in that bag, it was just saline! They didn’t operate, they just put her to sleep, made an incision, then stitched her up again.

So THAT’S how we keep our costs so long. Brilliant!