Sarah Palin proven right! Government tricks beautiful young mom; imposes 1st Death Panel Verdict

Those are two very interesting examples, so who do we trust to make our clothing? Nike has no problem using sweatshops. Here is a story about formaldehyde found in clothing sold in Target. Good thing we didn’t let the government be involved, they would have totally screwed that up.

And I’m sure glad we don’t trust government to make our cars. Imagine all the safety problems they’d come up with. I bet they’d roll over all the time, have gas tanks that burst into flames, accelerators that stick. We’d have slow, mediocre cars, like Volkswagens. Hazzah for private industry.

You keep mentioning this as if it’s a verified fact rather than something you keep repeating until you hope that we just take it as fact. It’s not. It’s something you either made up out of whole cloth or heard from someone who did.

But let’s go with it. Let’s assume this little tidbit is 100% accurate. Why oh why in the world would we ever have a complete overhaul of a system for a piddly little 15% of the population?

Because 15% of the population of the US is 46 MILLION PEOPLE.

I want you to actually sit back and digest that for a second. Forty six. Million. People.
What if every single friend you had was without health care? What if everyone who cared and loved you had no health care? Well multiply that by 23 million people and you’ll get a sense of the problem in this country.

The complete fucking over of 46 million people isn’t enough to warrant action?

Oddly, you have yet to tell the truth, the title of this thread being case in point. And then you choose to misrepresent what I say as “verbal sleight-of-hand.”

We are all still waiting for your facts regarding UHC. Now on page 21, we are all still waiting for facts.

What’s really funny, is that people who have lived in both Canada and the US have all kinds of facts for and against UHC. Like I said before, grade 7 students are able to argue against UHC using facts. All Starving Artist has are his opinions, which aren’t so much “his” as Rush Limbaugh’s. And they’re not so much opinions as just the crazy ravings of a drunk old man.

I see what you did there, well played sir, well played. Sadly, SA won’t get it because he’s already demonstrated his trouble with math. He probably thinks 15% is only 460,000 people or 4.6billion, either way it’s equally funny/sad.

It has to be less than 46 people, or he would have at least brought more anecdotes.

Oh weird, looking back, I think he has about 40 anecdotes. Could it really be that simple? He thinks 15% is 46 people, and that he knows all their personal stories? That would explain so much.

Horseshit. We really should have said this the first time it was brought you.

You are confusing two things, the made up number that “85% are happy” then you go on to assume they get “quick, immediate, high-quality care.”

All of which is horseshit.

You see, that 85% number, if it means anything, simply represents that Americans are more conservative, older, and biased towards a system they’ve always had. How many of them have any understanding of what UHC is like? You clearly don’t, so why should we believe any of that 85% is smarter than you? All it shows is that 85% of Americans have been brainwashed into believing they have the bestest, greatest, health care in the world.

When in reality, they have wait times, they have rationing, they have mediocre service.

Oddly enough, I was listening to an American woman bitching about how the high cost of a hospital stay has caused a push for people to be discharged sooner. I’m going to put her in the 15% group.

46 million people aren’t being completely fucked over. They aren’t even being partially fucked over. In fact, most don’t need health care at all at the present time. And of those who do, most don’t need urgent or expensive care. So that leaves a small percentage of the overall population who truly is in need of help, and my contention is that we’d all be much better served to come up with some sort of program to assist those few people rather turning the whole system upside down for the sake of those few people and putting all our health care in the hands of a government that we all know produces inferior results.

But to tell the truth I think this concern over the uninsured is largely a smokescreen just like insurance company malfeasance is largely a smokescreen. Solutions exist to deal with both of these problems but anytime someone brings one up they fall on deaf ears. This is because, once again, the real goal is political and it’s name is socialized medicine. You guys will condemn any and all ills that result under a free-market system and then, as has been demonstrated quite clearly in both these threads, you’ll excuse, rationalize or handwave away even greater ones provided they happen under a system of socialized care.

What we really need to be doing in this country is asking ourselves whether we want the government running our lives or not, because ultimately that is what liberalism really wants. It wants to create a world where everything is “fair”, where nobody has it better than anybody else and nobody has more than anybody else. And while that sounds all well and good, a couple of major problems exist in trying to acheive it. Number one, “fairness” is impossible to create in the first place. Fairness has never existed and it never will. Attempts to manufacture it only create other types of unfairness - and artificial, unnecessary ones at that.

Life was pretty fair for the inhabitants of the Soviet Union and communist China, but how happy were their lives? Life under forced fairness was bleak, oppressive and hopeless. What little that people had was cheap and of inferior quality, long lines existed for simple staples, and people were forced to buy and eat whatever the government in its wisdom decided should be grown and made available. And of course, government being government, errors in that decision making process were common, with the result being unexpected overages of some foods and shortages of others which resulted in such things as people having to eat bananas for three months because the government had produced too many of them and while having to stand in line for hours to get their allotment of bread due to a grain shortage.

And then we have the fact that so far as we’ve ever been able to determine, the only way that entirely socialistic governments can remain in power is through spying on and oppressing their populace. This is because the lack of individual freedom so characteristic of collectivist governments is utterly contrary to human nature and people will rebel against it if given the chance. And so criticism of government cannot be tolerated, with spying and police-state oppression being the result.

No, the fact of the matter is that life is unfair and shit happens. Conservatives believe that this fact should be recognized and that people should do the best they can to build lives in which they can better contend with the visissitudes of life when they happen, and in the event they can’t…well, that’s just life. And conservatives fall prey to the very same illnesses and accidents and troubles in life that happen to everyone else. We just don’t think it’s everyone else’s responsiblity to do something about it. And this is because we know that the individual freedom that goes along with living for ourselves and taking our own chances is vastly preferable to the oppression, privation and lack of personal freedom that is the inevitable result of creating a government whose purpose is to make things “fair”.

I’m as liberal as they come, and I’ve never claimed to anyone that I want government running my life.

Hey, SDMB libs! Is a central tenet of your beliefs the notion that government should be running your life? Help ol’ S_A out here.

Do you want everything to be “fair”? I suspect you do, at least in theory. And if so the way fairness can be can be created and enforced is through government intervention. And I’d also wage just about any amount you’d care to name that once single-payer becomes the norm you’ll soon be on to having government take over some other area where problems exist under a free market system. And then another and then another.

There is a constant push from the left in this country for more and more government, for higher and higher taxes, for more and more social programs, and for ever-increasing redistribution of income. Each of these leads to increased government control, and the more you get the more you want. There is absolutely no evidence that we will ever reach the time when liberals in this country will become satisfied with tax rates and government programs and social engineering until we reach the point that there is simply no more to take. And of course once we reach that point government will be running your life, whether you wanted it or saw it coming or not.

Hi ho Strawman, awaaaay!

What I’m really curious about is what percentage of people with medical problems are happy with their coverage, and how does that stack up in UHC versus non-UHC countries.

It really doesn’t tell us anything about the quality of the coverage if those 85% who are satisfied (if Starving Artist’s claim is correct) are all relatively healthy and haven’t had to use it.

No, we don’t “all know that”. You keep claiming that, and keep claiming that it is an accepted truth, like gravity. It may be true, probably not, but you offer us nothing more than your authority.

Well hell, what do you care anyway? If this is what you’re paranoid of it’s clearly something that will happen long long after you’re dead and buried. You’re paranoid about a sceme that will take at least 100 years to put into action, even if things go exactly according to our evil plan. I thought you were concerned about something immediate, like the healthcare bill.

I have private medical insurance. My husband was hit by a car in Feb 2009 and had three fractured bones as a result. The other result? About two hundred hours between the two of us trying to get our medical insurance people not to be assholes and do their jobs.

And I have good medical insurance.

Each and every single time I have to use it I dread it because it involves at least two hours of my time dealing with the paperwork and working with private insurance minions who have one thing on their minds and one thing only: to get my husband and myself to assume responsibility for bills we are not responsible for.

But hey I hear that UHC would be nothing but paperwork because Starving Artist said so and he knows all about UHC!

:rolleyes:

His post is his cite!

It is clear you don’t understand the theory of evolution.

On another note can we dispense with the 85% thing? Yes 85% of us are happy with our health care. I am happy with my doctors and with the hospital when I’ve had procedures done. What I am not happy with is the insurance companies I’ve had to deal with to get that care. And neither are my doctors. Every single fucking claim is denied the first time. It’s a game of resubmit, resubmit, resubmit. Eventually either the insurance company finally comes thru and pays or in some cases the Dr. just gives up and writes it off (this happened with my shoulder surgery) or I just pay because it takes up more of my time than the claim is worth.

I don’t know why I’m bothering.

There’s the problem right there - the Republican base just keeps getting narrower.

You probably missed this in all the excitement, but I was curious if you could provide a cite for this.

No, I do not want everything to be “fair”. I would prefer to see a reasonable level of medical care be available to all. I happen to feel a single-payer system would be more equitable, and based on personal observation and use of such a system in France, I believe such a system would be better for more people than what currently exists in the USA.

Your suspicions are incorrect.

Why? The only thing you know about me at the moment is my screen name and that I self-identify as a liberal. Where the hell do you get off making these sweeping generalizations about someone of whom you know next to nothing?

I will close by pointing out that if you believe other posters are misrepresenting your points, you seriously undermine your case by your frequent habit of trying to put words in other people’s mouths.