# Sarah Palin - Religious Conservative Wacko **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621 "2009-03-07T02:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/61 "2009-03-07T21:38:19Z")
I think the disconnect here is that **Diogenes** is thinking of praying as in asking God for something, like praying for someone’s health. I think it can also be meant as ‘hoping for’ with a religious bent, but I admit my first thought is also what **Diogenes** is thinking: Praying that you’re doing God’s will isn’t merely hoping that you’re doing God’s will, it’s asking God to make his will match up with yours. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/62 "2009-03-07T21:49:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I dn’t see any other way the words can be parsed, but I’m open to correction. If you are praying that you are doing God’s will," what, exactly, are you asking God for? Well, to give you the perspective of many religious people, we are asking for God’s influence in all that we do, so that the choices we make are reflective of His will. I realize this is an alien thought to you, but it’s a hope that we can live with God’s grace as an all-encompassing influence that permeates everything–our thoughts and actions. We also recognize that we are imperfect. Our wrong choices are those that are contrary to God’s will, and it is not always obvious to us when we choose the wrong path (though it would have been had we remained open to God’s will). So, combine that with the fact that we believe that God is completely unconstrained by time and the physical world–e.g., a mom might pray that her son who committed suicide ten years ago had repented while he lay dying, and we accept the fact that God could grant that petition, that he might influence that outcome. When we pray that we are doing God’s will, we are hoping that we were and are open to his word and influence–that the plan we follow is His. And, yes, we pray that even as we’re already “doing.” That very prayer recognizes the fact that we often fail in meeting His expectations. I went to 16 years of Catholic school–take it from me, this form of prayer is common. It doesn’t mean we want God to consider our way–it is a given that His way is the true one. I would be very surprised if Palin doesn’t hold a similar belief–what you’re suggesting would be alien to her. But, again, we needn’t parse the words too much. This is pretty standard politician-speak, uttered by believers and non-believers alike I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/63 "2009-03-07T22:13:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But praying isn’t hoping. Praying is petitioning. Praying is asking God for something. If you are doing X, and you “pray that it’s God’s will,” what can that possibly mean other than that you are asking God to make _what you are already doing_ into his will? That’s a pretty big mantle there – defining what prayer is for every case. No doubt what your saying _could_ be true, but is it _necessarily_ true? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/64 "2009-03-07T22:14:01Z")
I agree with Diogenes. After I realized this, I vomited violently for 20 minutes. But now I’m back. She didn’t say “I’m paying for God to show me his will and guide us” or “I hope what we’re doing is God’s will”. She decided she was going to do something, and then prayed (asked) for that thing to be right. The only way to fulfill that prayer is for God to bend his will, if it doesn’t already match, to what she wants. And as someone who has little to no partisan hangups, I absolutely would be irritated if I heard a prominent democrat say these things. I mean for fucks sake, can we grow up as a society? Let’s make a decision about something based on the merits, not about whether it’s God’s will or not. Most of them don’t actually believe it when they say this stuff - it’s just that appealing to God is the ultimate case of appeal to authority. Divine will is some powerful stuff. The people that actually believe they’re doing is God’s will are scarier. What will they think up next and think they have a sacred duty to it? For fucks sake, these are the people that are running our country. Their decisions affect the lives of millions. And we have them either bullshitting us about it being God’s will (therefore trying to drown out actual discussion of the merits) or they actually believe it, in which case someone on a Mission From God is running some aspect of our lvies. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/65 "2009-03-07T22:16:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I dn’t see any other way the words can be parsed, but I’m open to correction. If you are praying that you are doing God’s will," what, exactly, are you asking God for? > … I would interpret it this was, though really, why pray at all if god supposedly already knows what you are thinking, what you want, and everything else… Anyway, she’s doing two things. She’s explaining that what she’s doing is because she thinks this is what god wants her to do, and she wants god to forgive her if she’s wrong, and better yet give her some kind of sign to steer her onto the right path if she’s on the wrong one now. I wonder what would happen if a voice in her head told her to do something opposite? Imagine she wakes up the next days and says, “Oops, I was wrong. God told me to do this other thing. So, Alaska, that’s what we’re gonna do.” I don’t think that would go over very well. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/66 "2009-03-07T22:19:01Z")
deleted. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/67 "2009-03-07T22:21:06Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > ETA: Diogenes you’re trying too hard. Her words DO mean that if this is not God’s will, that He show us and we change. They were harmless, innocuous words, similar to those uttered by politicians on both sides of the aisle about a billion times before. So you’re claiming that Palin’s words indicate an openness to changing her mind if that was God’s will. What do you think Palin would have accepted as God showing her his will, if it differed from hers, WRT the war? I mean, there were plenty of obvious signs that it was a really, really bad idea, but I guess none of those constituted a burning bush or Saul on the road to Damascus moment. Are you seriously claiming that there was any way Palin was going to change her mind about Iraq? It’s disingenuous in the extreme to make such a claim, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/68 "2009-03-07T22:54:50Z")
[QUOTE= Diogenes the Cynic] Praying is petitioning. [/quote] Not exclusively, it isn’t. [QUOTE= Diogenes the Cynic] If you are praying that you are doing God’s will," what, exactly, are you asking God for? [/QUOTE] You’re praying that you have had the wisdom to have apprehended God’s will properly enough that what you’re doing fits within it. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/69 "2009-03-07T22:57:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I would interpret it this was, though really, why pray at all if god supposedly already knows what you are thinking, what you want, and everything else… > > Anyway, she’s doing two things. She’s explaining that what she’s doing is because she thinks this is what god wants her to do, and she wants god to forgive her if she’s wrong, and better yet give her some kind of sign to steer her onto the right path if she’s on the wrong one now. I’m not the type of person who is really good at prayer, but this is basically my interpretation of what she was talking about. **Diogenes** , as others have said, prayer is by no means only about petitioning God for what you want. In fact, when I learned about prayer as a child, they made the point of telling us that the things you want are last on the list of what you should be talking to God about when you pray. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/70 "2009-03-07T23:12:42Z")
Stipulate Diogenes is wrong (I think he is). She’s said and done plenty of stuff that indicate she’s either a wackaloon literalist, or she’s willing to provide wackaloon literalists access to the halls of power. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/71 "2009-03-07T23:24:34Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > Not exclusively, it isn’t. In this case it is. There’s no other way to parse it. > [@](#): > > You’re praying that you have had the wisdom to have apprehended God’s will properly enough that what you’re doing fits within it. This makes no sense. How can you ask God for the decision you’ve already made to have been the correct one? What if it wasn’t? What exactly are you asking GOD to do? I’m charitable enough to accept that she was using “pray” as a synonymn for “hope,” and was just too stupid to think about the literal meaning of her words, but semantically, her words can’t literally parse as anything but a request for God to conform his will to her actions. And it’s not like she expressed any intent to change her actions if they WEREN’T God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/72 "2009-03-07T23:33:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In this case it is. There’s no other way to parse it. > > This makes no sense. How can you ask God for the decision you’ve already made to have been the correct one? What if it wasn’t? What exactly are you asking GOD to do? You can parse it exactly the way others have done, and have already explained to you…basically, it’s another way of saying that she is praying they have done the right thing. God doesn’t come right out and TELL you what to do…you have to use your brain to figure out what you think he wants, with maybe some guidance from the Holy Spirit. So, you pray that you are doing that, and generally also that if you aren’t, God will give you some guidance. > [@](#): > > I’m charitable enough to accept that she was using “pray” as a synonymn for “hope,” and was just too stupid to think about the literal meaning of her words, but semantically, her words can’t literally parse as anything but a request for God to conform his will to her actions. I know you aren’t going to admit you are wrong, but you are. “Pray that we are doing God’s will” literally means what it says…that we hope we are doing what God wants. Period. She doesn’t say here that she wants God to DO anything about it, so by those words alone you have no way of knowing whether she means “if we are not doing his will, I want him to change his mind,” or if she meant “if we are not doing his will, I want him to let us know so that we can change our course,” or if she wasn’t asking him for anything at all. You have to infer the rest, and given my understanding of your average Christian’s relationship to God, the second one is the most likely. > [@](#): > > And it’s not like she expressed any intent to change her actions if they WEREN’T God’s will. She didn’t have to…it’s implied. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/73 "2009-03-07T23:52:52Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > You can parse it exactly the way others have done, and have already explained to you…basically, it’s another way of saying that she is praying they have done the right thing. But that makes no sense, once you’ve already done it. If you’re not asking God to change anything, then what are you asking for? > [@](#): > > God doesn’t come right out and TELL you what to do…you have to use your brain to figure out what you think he wants, with maybe some guidance from the Holy Spirit. So, you pray that you are doing that, and generally also that if you aren’t, God will give you some guidance. But this isn’t about asking for guidance in making a decision, it’s about making the decision first and then retroacticely asking God to make it “his will.” > [@](#): > > I know you aren’t going to admit you are wrong, but you are. “Pray that we are doing God’s will” literally means what it says…that we hope we are doing what God wants. Period. “Pray” and “hope” do not mean the same thing. > [@](#): > > She doesn’t say here that she wants God to DO anything about it Then why is she praying? If she’s prayingm she’s not _hoping_ she’s done right, she’s asking God to make it right retroactively. If she 's “praying” for actions she’s _already taken_ to have been God’s will, then how is that different than asking God to _make_ it his will? He obviouly can’t change her actions. She’s already acted. She _can’t_ be asking for guidance or advice or a sign. She already did what she wanted to do. So what does she want God to do about it _after the fact_? If the answer is nothing, then why is she praying? > [@](#): > > so by those words alone you have no way of knowing whether she means “if we are not doing his will, I want him to change his mind,” or if she meant “if we are not doing his will, I want him to let us know so that we can change our course,” or if she wasn’t asking him for anything at all. You have to infer the rest, and given my understanding of your average Christian’s relationship to God, the second one is the most likely. You’re putting words in her mouth. This is basically fanwanking. She didn’t say any of that, and I don’t believe for a second that she intended to imply it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/74 "2009-03-08T00:27:16Z")
**Dio** , ol’ chum, you’re being entirely reasonable. About the least rational subject in the Universe. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/75 "2009-03-08T00:36:52Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > So you’re claiming that Palin’s words indicate an openness to changing her mind if that was God’s will. What do you think Palin would have accepted as God showing her his will, if it differed from hers, WRT the war? I mean, there were plenty of obvious signs that it was a really, really bad idea, but I guess none of those constituted a burning bush or Saul on the road to Damascus moment. Are you seriously claiming that there was any way Palin was going to change her mind about Iraq? It’s disingenuous in the extreme to make such a claim, IMO. I’m making no such claim. I’m just pointing out that her words, by themselves, are an innocuous, common form of prayer. Whether or not her actions are consistent with such a prayer is another question, but those words are simply not the “Jesus told me to invade Iraq” silliness some like to portray them as. Diogenes, I already explained it to you, but you seem hellbent on interpreting it as if it were a form of debate instead of a prayer. I have heard countless forms of such a prayer, “God, we pray that we have chosen the correct path.” Really, I’m not lying to you. This was not some kind of unique non sequitur, the result of Palin spouting off some kind of appeal for a change in divine policy. Christians generally believe that God is not bound by time, so our prayers can be for what we have done, what we are already doing, and what we are about to do. Perhaps I travel in odd circles of people, but I swear to you, this is what we were taught, and I have heard such prayers about a million times. Really and truly. I’m not trying to convince you to believe the same things, just pointing out that you are trying to parse a prayer while ignoring the beliefs that create the context for them. “How can you ask God to influence something that has already happened?” Because he’s God. Quite a bag of tricks he has at his disposal. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/76 "2009-03-08T00:45:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But that makes no sense, once you’ve already done it. If you’re not asking God to change anything, then what are you asking for? > > But this isn’t about asking for guidance in making a decision, it’s about making the decision first and then retroacticely asking God to make it “his will.” No, before hand, you pray that you are going to do make the right decision, afterward, you pray that you have made the right decision. > [@](#): > > “Pray” and “hope” do not mean the same thing. > > Then why is she praying? If she’s prayingm she’s not _hoping_ she’s done right, she’s asking God to make it right retroactively. If she 's “praying” for actions she’s _already taken_ to have been God’s will, then how is that different than asking God to _make_ it his will? He obviouly can’t change her actions. She’s already acted. She _can’t_ be asking for guidance or advice or a sign. She already did what she wanted to do. So what does she want God to do about it _after the fact_? If the answer is nothing, then why is she praying? > > You’re putting words in her mouth. This is basically fanwanking. She didn’t say any of that, and I don’t believe for a second that she intended to imply it. You are the one putting words in her mouth. I’m not fanwanking, because I’m not a fan, not of the religious stuff, anyway. But people ask God all the time to continue guiding them, and to correct them if they’re wrong. I don’t get how you are parsing this at all. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/77 "2009-03-08T00:47:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Stratocaster** > > Dio, you’re torturing the words. Are you seriously suggesting that the likeliest intended meaning for these words was that Palin hoped that if we were conducting our affairs contrary to God’s will, that he might consider a change in company policy? Come on. > > I dn’t see any other way the words can be parsed, but I’m open to correction. If you are praying that you are doing God’s will," what, exactly, are you asking God for? That He change what you did if it wasn’t? I mean, if He’s _God_, after, all, it should be a snap… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/78 "2009-03-08T00:56:55Z")
Stupid edit window… ETA: FWIW, **Dio** , I think you’re contorting yourself pretty egresiously in order to avoid conceding the teensiest possible point on what pretty much all of us agree is a damning litany of evidence that SP is a RCW. Just let it go. There are better uses for your admittedly large reserves of intellectual energy. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/79 "2009-03-08T01:05:37Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I’m making no such claim. Yes you are. You said: > [@](#): > > Her words DO mean that if this is not God’s will, that He show us and we change. And I ask you, how would God show Sarah his will? Is that something that you realistically think could ever, ever happen? Do you honestly think that she was open to changing her mind about the military action in Iraq? I think not. So this bullshit about how her prayer shows that she’s open to being shown her wrongness and changing her ways is just that. > [@](#): > > Whether or not her actions are consistent with such a prayer is another question, but those words are simply not the “Jesus told me to invade Iraq” silliness some like to portray them as. But it is “I really hope we’re doing what God wants, and since there’s clearly no way for him to tell me otherwise, I’m just going to assume he’s on my side and do what it is that I want.” Is that pretty close? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621/80 "2009-03-08T01:08:30Z")
Listen, IF Palin is sincere about her religious beliefs, and I never give a politician the benefit of the doubt about sincerety, she’s simply NOT parsing things the same way as you, Dio. Those fundies are trempbling before god hoping they’ll get it right, and fearful of the consequences if they don’t. I will certainly grant you that she is stupid enough not to understand the specific implications of her prayers, as stated. There’s been plenty of evidence of how stupid she is. And there is another possibility that, oddly IMO, hasn’t come up yet. Which is that she’s cynically faking her religious fervor in order to pander to the segment of the public who buy into that stuff. And is therefor mouthing words that she doesn’t believe and doesn’t really understand, and doesn’t care about except in the sense that she selects the right buzzwords and puts them in an order that _seems_, er… devout. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-religious-conservative-wacko/488621.md?page=5)