# Sarah Palin supports Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 4, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417 "2008-10-04T05:11:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/221 "2008-10-07T05:10:59Z")
Its just like speed limits! The government says you can’t go faster than 55 miles a hour in your car. Rationale: its safer, and saves gas. Well, whats to stop the government from making the speed limit _zero_ miles per hour!? That’s _totally_ safe and saves\* all \*the gas! That’s the trouble with you liberals, you don’t think things through to their logical conclusions! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/222 "2008-10-07T05:36:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t think that government (especially not the federal government) should alleviate poverty–that should be left to private charities. Which you don’t contribute to. Hence the need for taxes. Dumbass. Listen. Since you are obviously a sociopath with no emotional empathy for anyone or anything, perhaps a utilitarian argument will make a dent in your skull. Governments, over the centuries, have discovered that the underclass (a) is persistent, and (b) must be kept mollified, lest it become agitated. People without jobs have lots of time on their hands, you see, with which they can make mischief. Better to shave a few coppers off your pile of gold and distribute it among the poor than to have them get pissed off at you, burn down your mansion, and take everything for themselves. Only the most densely short-sighted aristocrats are unable to grasp this basic idea, that public charity is _defensive._ If you hoard too much of the wealth, too obviously, it won’t be long before the mob comes streaming over your wall and puts your head on a stick. As a hedge against this somewhat unpleasant outcome, your fellow oligarchs have determined that it is preferable to force even the greediest and grabbiest among you to part with a small number of shekels, which will be distributed among the stinking rabble, the better to keep them sedately comfortable, rather than loud and pitchforky. Your stated philosophy, if allowed to be followed to its conclusion, would constitute your rapid suicide. How about them apples, sparky? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/223 "2008-10-07T05:37:33Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > What does your philosophy have to say about those who remain poor through no fault of their own? Soylent Green. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/224 "2008-10-07T06:02:38Z")
**Cervaise** , you have just made all of the points I was thinking of while reading the thread, albeit in a much more literate and pleasing fashion. My hat is off to you sir! If the pitchforky mob streams over **Rand Rover’s** wall and puts his head on a stick, may I please have the youtube link? My take is: Sociopath or Troll? Why not both? One thing is certain- for a “$500/hour” lawyer, he sure has a lot of time on his hands… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/225 "2008-10-07T07:19:44Z")
You know, as a modern lefty I’ve pretty much tossed the “class warfare” schtick into the dustbin, its old fashioned and quaint, like Pinkertons and Wobblies, more of a time when Granpa Simpson was a Trotskyist agitator. (The suppressed episode…) But darned if some people don’t make it seem like a pretty good idea, a golden oldie. I mean, if we don’t feed the rich into the wood chipper of people’s justice, how do we prevent more Paris Hilton’s from being born? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/226 "2008-10-07T13:05:25Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But surely not everyone can do that? I’m not talking about limitations of “being a loser”, but of the structure of society. 10 people doing their best is admirable but there may not be 10 jobs, 10 promotions. An Olympic event is filled with the best people in the world at what they do, the cream of the crop - but only one will get the gold. > > Is it because the others don’t do their best? If all the athletes on the field did their best, would each get a gold? No. Because the rules say the best person is the winner. Likewise, all people doing their best does not mean that all those people will “win” whatever it is they’re aiming for. > > That you cannot see results from all people is certainly due to that some people aren’t willing to give their all. There’s an artificial cap created by the people who do do their best (or who are simply more talented, smarter, or naturally rather than purposefully skilled). But likewise there is a cap created by the very nature of society, one in which business is further molded by the market, that means rising to the occasion doesn’t guarantee you success. Society guarantees that for every person doing the best they can possibly do, many more than that one also doing their best will fail. We cannot look and say that those who fail do so because they do not give their all, nor can we say that excuses and results are two diametric opposites. Thanks for the actual discussion instead of just the invective I keep gettingt from other people. I understand what you are saying. However, the number of jobs, promotions, etc.(Lets call them “wealth opportunities”) isb’t a fixed number. A person can create their own wealth opportunities. Also, these opportunities are not uniformly distributed across industries and locations’ so a person can increase thier chances by moving or changing industries. Also, I’m not sure that the binary succeed or don’t succeed model is the right way to look at it. Rather, there is a range of outcomes. To extend your Olympics analogy, they do give medals to second and third, and everyone in the race at least made iÞ to the olympics. You can’t say that they didn’t succeed at all just because they didn’t get the gold. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/227 "2008-10-07T13:11:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That’s because there doesn’t **need** to be a stopper to prevent this from happening. It isn’t going to happen, for purely pragmatic reasons. > > What you say is perfectly true so far as it goes, but is not relevant to what I said. > > What I said was that we are not anywhere close, and Obama’s proposed tax reforms wouldn’t put us anywhere close, to a situation where we might have a level of tax progressivity that “drove significant amounts of high earners away from high-income occupations into low-income ones”. > > Your attempt to rebut that claim merely notes that changes in the tax code can produce changes in investment patterns. Well, of course they can, but that doesn’t in any way contradict what I said. > > Like many Objectivist-type arguments, your line of reasoning is wholly dependent on unrealistic slippery slopes and unjustified inferences. For instance, we’re supposed to be concerned about the existence of **any** top-down income redistribution in the tax code because “OMG, the government could in theory decide to confiscate **all** income over $50K and flatline the Gini index! There’s no formulated stopper in the rubric to prevent that from happening!” Um, sorry, but this is not remotely scary, because it’s not even super-remotely plausible. > > Likewise, you’re asking us to believe that a modest change in the tax code that will alter current investment patterns to some extent is somehow seriously comparable to making the tax code so ruthlessly over-progressive that it will cause wealthy tax lawyers to quit their jobs in droves to go become garbagemen. This is, not to put too fine a point on it, ridiculous. > > And these hyperbolic and rather silly analogies, plus your personal disdain for poor people, appear to be all you’ve got in the way of argument. Okay, but with rationales that shoddy, you shouldn’t expect to convince anybody. > Another weak and illogical argument. You’re trying to make it seem as though there’s no middle ground between refusing to give poor people any financial assistance at all, and dehumanizing them with patronizing condescension. In reality, of course, it **is** possible to provide some help to those in need while still treating them “with respect and like human beings”. Clinging to this false dichotomy may make you feel good about your own opinions, but it isn’t likely to persuade anybody else that selfishness is really a “humanitarian” virtue. You’ve raised word twisting to an art form. I dpon’t have time now to respond to this strawman party, but I will later. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/228 "2008-10-07T13:15:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you believe that government assistance to the poor is a “far-out nutty thing,” then here is your example of stupidity. > > Government assistance programs financed through a tax structure in which the primary burden is placed on the wealthy is a policy that has been virtually universally adopted by industrialized countries in every corner of the globe. You treat that concept like it is some Frankenstein experiment from the social policy lab, as opposed to an uncontroversial, universally accepted policy. The only serious disagreements on the matter come to what _degree_ is reasonable in terms of taxes and handout. > > You are free to disagree with the concept. I’m not calling you stupid because you have different views. I’m calling you stupid because you are ignorant of how the entire fucking world taxes the wealthy to help out the poor in some way or another, and you imply that such policies are a “far-out nutty thing.” > > To put it another way, there are environmentalists who hate cars. Fine, whatever. But if an environmentalist were to say that cars are a bizarre, unheard of form of technology, they’d be dumb. You’re making the same fundamental error. You have misunderstood what i called a far out and nutty thing. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/229 "2008-10-07T13:56:46Z")
Being as I don’t make anywhere near what **Rand Rover** does, that the notion that it is entirely one’s own fault if one is poor is absurdly simplistic, that I somehow get by relatively comfortably on the amount I make, and that I don’t begrudge my tax burden all that much even though I know some of it is wasted, I find it rather difficult to work up much agreement with his position. Sorry. Just giving some feedback on the relative effectiveness of his arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/230 "2008-10-07T13:58:37Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One thing is certain- for a “$500/hour” lawyer, he sure has a lot of time on his hands… He’ll bill us at the end of the month. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > and everyone in the race at least made iÞ to the olympics. Hey **Randy** , that’s at least the second time in this thread you’ve typed a thorn instead of a T. How does that even happen? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/231 "2008-10-07T14:12:29Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Hey **Randy** , that’s at least the second time in this thread you’ve typed a thorn instead of a T. How does that even happen? Because he’s a prick. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/232 "2008-10-07T14:18:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > they do give medals to second and third, and everyone in the race at least made iÞ to the olympics. How the _heck_ did you make a typo like that, Rand? I mean, physically? Edit: Ha! Guess I wasn’t the only one wondering. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/233 "2008-10-07T14:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] How the _heck_ did you make a typo like that, Rand? I mean, physically? Edit: Ha! Guess I wasn’t the only one wondering. [/QUOTE] It’s a $500/hour tax lawyer tic. Doesn’t this strike you as something written by a top-flight attorney? > [@Rand Rover](#): > > You have misunderstood what i called a far out and nutty thing. I’m leaning toward college sophomore, possibly employed in food service. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/234 "2008-10-07T14:37:48Z")
Come on, guys. The great value he provides to society should allow him to use thorns instead of T’s whenever the fuck he wants without the likes of you bleeding-hearts ganging up on him. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/235 "2008-10-07T15:01:46Z")
I’d like a cite that Obama’s economic plan calls for cash handouts to the poor. People like **Rand Rover** make me sick. They get so worked up over welfare, but they don’t seem to care about corporate welfare, or the huge percentage of tax revenue that goes to pay interest on the debt, or any other of tons of wasteful things the government does. They don’t care that we shrinkwrapped billions of dollars of cash and flew it to Iraq and lost it. No, they lie awake at night terrified that some poor mother is going to get an extra can of beans to feed her hungry children, and it might cost the government a dime. What a mean, hateful way to go through life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/236 "2008-10-07T15:03:10Z")
Not that he’s not a nutbar, but maybe he’s using a non-English keyboard? Or posting with his teeny RandWang. It could be either. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/237 "2008-10-07T15:25:32Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, empathy is overrated. It’s basically just a willingness to accept other people’s excuses for being a loser based on your own past of being a loser. I want results from people, not excuses. And I think that people will rise to the occasion if their best is constantly demanded from them. Hahahahahaha!!! I never thought I’d read actual interplay between normal people and That Guy, but here it is. Folks, Rand is That Guy\*, so I wouldn’t get so worked up over anything he says. - With due attribution and acknowledgement to Matt Groening. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/238 "2008-10-07T15:28:43Z")
…and anyway, his boneitis should be kicking in any day now and he’ll be gone. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/239 "2008-10-07T15:36:04Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I’d like a cite that Obama’s economic plan calls for cash handouts to the poor. > > People like **Rand Rover** make me sick. They get so worked up over welfare, but they don’t seem to care about corporate welfare, or the huge percentage of tax revenue that goes to pay interest on the debt, or any other of tons of wasteful things the government does. They don’t care that we shrinkwrapped billions of dollars of cash and flew it to Iraq and lost it. No, they lie awake at night terrified that some poor mother is going to get an extra can of beans to feed her hungry children, and it might cost the government a dime. What a mean, hateful way to go through life. But see, the corporations provide so much wealth and do so much for society-they DESERVE the handouts!!! Those greedy little brats don’t do anything! **Onomatopoeia** , for those of us not familiar with the reference? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/240 "2008-10-07T15:38:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Simply put, I create more value for society than does the garbageman. Since the only other response I’ve spotted to this statement is just abuse, let me address it myself: No. You don’t. Your skills are of more value to that particular minority subsection of society which has the majority of the wealth. You can charge more because your clients can afford to pay more. Measuring worth on a purely monetary scale thus presents a skewed assessment of your value to society as a whole. Rather, as a test of “value for society”, I propose the following thought experiment: imagine that all the tax lawyers disappeared one day and their jobs were not filled. Now imagine, instead, that the same happened to all the garbagemen. Which would result in a more rapid and catastrophic breakdown of society? Even excluding the usual lawyer jokes, the garbagemen will win that one hands down. Income and wealth are not a reflection of societal value, nor of the quality or quantity one has contributed to the world. Paris Hilton is ample proof of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417.md?page=13)