# Sarah Palin supports Hamas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 4, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417 "2008-10-04T05:11:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/121 "2008-10-05T20:15:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > FTR: Rand Rover has yet to comment on Friday’s unemployment report. Headline: [159,000 Jobs Lost in September, the Worst Month in Five Years](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/business/economy/04jobs.html?_r=1&ref=economy&oref=slogin). Sorry man, I don’t have time to comment on everything. Yep, it does suck that unemployment is up. Let’s make sure to vote for someone who will allow those that can create value to keep creating value instead of voting for someone who will reduce the incentives for people to create new jobs. There, I’ve commented. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/122 "2008-10-05T20:16:47Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > What a stupid motherfucker. 😕 And you continue to illustrate my point. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/123 "2008-10-05T20:21:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > It’s really sad and telling that you think an idea as simple as “the government should not take money from the rich for the purpose of making cash handouts to the poor” is some far-out nutty thing and how dare I have the temerity to hold it. Shows how much of a far left echo chamber the SDMB really is. Cite a single person here or in Obama’s campaign who advocates the government taking money from the rich for the purpose of making cash handouts to the poor. That’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/124 "2008-10-05T20:23:14Z")
Ah, I see I didn’t make myself clear. > [@Chefguy](#): > > And you base that keen analysis on what: McCain and Bush saying it’s so? We’re in a recession that is gaining steam, over 3/4 of a million jobs have been lost in the last nine months, and California is nearly broke and considering asking for a federal loan. _California_: probably the most economically diverse state in the union, and it’s going broke. California used to have an economy that ranked higher than most nations, now gone begging. Chefguy made an unremarkable claim (recession), that he substantiated with 2 facts. The NBER invariably announces the commencement of a recession many months after the fact. So while the recession is not and will not be official for a while, there’s solid reason to believe that we’re in one. As noted earlier, the word “recession” is pretty well specified (though it has both a formal and an informal definition). Merely characterizing Chefguy’s remarks as opinion, while ignoring the factual content _and implying that no factual content is there_, is bad form and more than a little lame. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/125 "2008-10-05T20:25:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > It’s really sad and telling that you think an idea as simple as “the government should not take money from the rich for the purpose of making cash handouts to the poor” is some far-out nutty thing and how dare I have the temerity to hold it. Shows how much of a far left echo chamber the SDMB really is. Well, of course not! They should take money from anybody who has it, and put it to good use building a better country. A place where being poor is a temporary misfortune, one that can be put right. A place where being poor is a misfortune, but not a sentence to shitty health care and worse education. You grease the wheels of commerce, and I’m sure we are all grateful that you help us to obtain more loud, shiny crap. But your garbageman works for the common good as well, perhaps even moreso. Why do your children deserve better lives than his? A nation is a collective,\*\* Rand\*\*, like a family, a tribe, or a clan, just writ larger. This land is ours, not yours, not his, not mine. The purple mountain majesties? Ours. Amber waves of grain? Ours. Its children? Most _definitely_ ours! Ony rats win rat races, and John Galt was a sociopath. And Hell is a gated community. ---
**Author:** ![Influential\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Influential\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Influential_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/126 "2008-10-05T20:26:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 😕 And you continue to illustrate my point. Stop being such a stupid motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/127 "2008-10-05T20:29:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, of course not! They should take money from anybody who has it, and put it to good use building a better country. A place where being poor is a temporary misfortune, one that can be put right. A place where being poor is a misfortune, but not a sentence to shitty health care and worse education. You grease the wheels of commerce, and I’m sure we are all grateful that you help us to obtain more loud, shiny crap. But your garbageman works for the common good as well, perhaps even moreso. Why do your children deserve better lives than his? > > A nation is a collective,\*\* Rand\*\*, like a family, a tribe, or a clan, just writ larger. This land is ours, not yours, not his, not mine. The purple mountain majesties? Ours. Amber waves of grain? Ours. Its children? Most _definitely_ ours! > > Ony rats win rat races, and John Galt was a sociopath. And Hell is a gated community. Well said! ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/128 "2008-10-05T20:30:20Z")
> [@Influential\_Panda](#): > > Stop being such a stupid motherfucker. It’s not like he has a choice… ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/129 "2008-10-05T20:31:54Z")
[QUOTE=Rand Rover] It’s really sad and telling that you think an idea as simple as “the government should not take money from the rich for the purpose of making cash handouts to the poor” is some far-out nutty thing and how dare I have the temerity to hold it. Shows how much of a far left echo chamber the SDMB really is. [/QUOTE] You didn’t even bother to read the link, did you? You know, the one I cited, that surveyed economists about the relative soundness of Obama’s economic platform vs. McCain’s. All you want to do is whine about all the leftists on the SDMB. (deep breath) One more time…I’m neither a Democrat nor a liberal. I’m an Independent and a moderate, but strong on fiscal restraint. I’m pissed as hell at the current crop of Republicans–and that includes McCain–because they’ve behaved with all the fiscal responsibility of a drunk freshman newly possessed of umpteen credit cards. Nobody _but you_ is talking about robbing the rich to give to fat, lazy welfare leeches. That argument, so charmingly black and white, resides entirely in your head. Stop the hell shoving it onto others, including me. I, and others on this board of several political persuasions, have expressed support for the practicality and solidity of Obama’s political platform as compared to McCain’s. Not lazy parasites vs. your favorite Ayn Rand character. Not thugs robbing liquor stores at gunpoint vs. Bill Gates. The actual, documented plans presented by both candidates. Actual world reality, not your “leftist Dopers!” and “I didn’t really mean _those_ rich people” flights of fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/130 "2008-10-05T20:39:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 😕 And you continue to illustrate my point. As do you, you stupid motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/131 "2008-10-05T20:43:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, of course not! They should take money from anybody who has it, and put it to good use building a better country. A place where being poor is a temporary misfortune, one that can be put right. A place where being poor is a misfortune, but not a sentence to shitty health care and worse education. You grease the wheels of commerce, and I’m sure we are all grateful that you help us to obtain more loud, shiny crap. But your garbageman works for the common good as well, perhaps even moreso. Why do your children deserve better lives than his? > > A nation is a collective,\*\* Rand\*\*, like a family, a tribe, or a clan, just writ larger. This land is ours, not yours, not his, not mine. The purple mountain majesties? Ours. Amber waves of grain? Ours. Its children? Most _definitely_ ours! > > Ony rats win rat races, and John Galt was a sociopath. And Hell is a gated community. OMG an actual post (as opposed to a short snark) from Elucidator. Excuse me while I check outside for a full moon. 😃 Look, we all want the best country possible, we just disagree on how to get there. Doesn’t make either one of us evil (although I’ve probably called posters on this board evil before in a fit of pique). I’ll go through some of your points individually: > [@](#): > > A place where being poor is a temporary misfortune, one that can be put right. Which is why we should keep the incentives for hard work in place. Then the poor will see that they can work their way out of poverty. > [@](#): > > But your garbageman works for the common good as well, perhaps even moreso. Why do your children deserve better lives than his? Simply put, I create more value for society than does the garbageman. > [@](#): > > A nation is a collective,\*\* Rand\*\*, like a family, a tribe, or a clan, just writ larger. And the best way to divvy up stuff in our collective is according to each person’s efforts to create that stuff. > [@](#): > > John Galt was a sociopath. :eek:Oh no he di’n’t! It’s a fiction book, come on, the Aynster was illustrating a point. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/132 "2008-10-05T21:17:57Z")
[QUOTE=Rand Rover] :eek:Oh no he di’n’t! It’s a fiction book, come on, the Aynster was illustrating a point. [/QUOTE] With all of the skill of a two-year-old on a Pixi-Stix bender. Ayn Rand couldn’t find the point on a knitting needle. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/133 "2008-10-05T21:24:59Z")
[QUOTE=Rand Rover] :eek:Oh no he di’n’t! It’s a fiction book, come on, the Aynster was illustrating a point. [/QUOTE] With all of the skill of a two-year-old on a Pixi-Stix bender. Ayn Rand couldn’t find the point on a knitting needle. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/134 "2008-10-05T21:31:01Z")
[QUOTE=Rand Rover] :eek:Oh no he di’n’t! It’s a fiction book, come on, the Aynster was illustrating a point. [/QUOTE] With all of the skill of a two-year-old on a Pixi-Stix bender. Ayn Rand couldn’t find the point on a knitting needle. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/135 "2008-10-05T22:19:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Simply put, I create more value for society than does the garbageman. I take back what I said before. You’re a _willfully_ stupid motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/136 "2008-10-05T22:52:53Z")
Ayn Rand was a shitty writer. That is a fact, not an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/137 "2008-10-05T23:03:52Z")
Hey, a little compassion here! Its pretty clear our new friend is suffering from full-blown Objectivism. I mean, you don’t hate Tom Cruise for his Scientology, do you? OK, maybe that’s not the best choice… I can relate, I’m a recovered Randpire. I shudder the think of the extensive chemotherapy I had to undergo to free me of its cold and squamous grip. So I’m kinda obligated to help a brother out, pull his coat over to the First Step, you file me? Besides, there are rather few really stupid Objectivist, its an affliction visited mostly on the cerebrally overburdened, the kind of people who think smart is a virtue rather than merely a characteristic. And they don’t need God to tell them if they’re better people, they\* know \*they’re better people, because its obvious on the face of it. Though you have to be smart to see that. But stupid, no, no fair. Its a malignancy more common to Mensa than the Elks Club. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/138 "2008-10-05T23:10:56Z")
If anybody is interested, there is a cutting edge discussion on whether the US is in recession [here](http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/09/gross_domestic.html). Short answer: yes. Longer answer: > [@James Hamilton](#): > > Measures of employment growth and the unemployment rate seem to be signaling pretty strongly that the U.S. is already in a recession, whereas the GDP numbers do not. Which should we believe? Given that one can reconcile the employment and GDP inferences entirely on the basis of the known numerical value for the statistical discrepancy in the GDP numbers, it seems like a pretty clear call to me-- the U.S. economy is currently in a recession which likely began in the fourth quarter of last year. > > There’s an important implication of this for the ongoing discussion of the current financial turmoil. The U.S. is currently in a recession, and events of the last two weeks are sure to make things worse for the next few months, even if we had some policy to bring immediate stability to financial markets. That is water under the bridge at this point. > > The purpose of the Paulson-Dodd proposals is thus not to prevent the economy from going into recession. The purpose is to prevent the recession from turning into a severe contraction. There are serious issues here gang. This recession was caused by the collapse in the housing bubble as well as severe flaws in our financial institutions. Fixing the first requires application of textbook economics. But proper institutional reform will be hard to figure out: efforts should reflect the thinking of our best minds. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/139 "2008-10-05T23:14:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There, I’ve commented. Next time, use Immodium. :dubious: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Simply put, I create more value for society than does the garbageman. I’ve seen the service the Sanitation Dept. provides my household twice a week. I’ve read what you have to offer. You owe the Sanitation Dept. one Holy Hell of a Christmas tip (your annual salary x 3 seems about right, you over-paid Hack). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417/140 "2008-10-05T23:24:02Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Cite a single person here or in Obama’s campaign who advocates the government taking money from the rich for the purpose of making cash handouts to the poor. That’s just silly. 😕 Are you serious? The Obama tax cuts are all about taking money from people who make over $250k (or maybe just $600K if you only consider income taxes, Obama’s plan keeps changing) and giving it to the poor in the form of refundable tax credits. This isn’t spin, it’s part of his plan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-supports-hamas/466417.md?page=8)