# Sarah Palin takes no responsibility for the Tucson shootings? Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104 "2011-01-10T16:09:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/521 "2011-01-13T00:09:28Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > …[ul][li]An elected Representative called for Democrats in Congress to be investigated as _un-American_![/li][li]A former Governor and former Vice Presidential candidate put rifle crosshairs on a map, aimed at specific people in Congress.[/li][li]Elected Representatives accused our President of “palling around with terrorists”![/li][li]Elected Representatives accused Democrats of wanting to kill people’s grandmothers![/li][li]An opponent to a sitting Congresswoman held an event at a firing range and put his Democratic opponent’s initials on the silhouette he was firing at![/li][li]A candidate for office told an interviewer that people may have to exercise their Second Amendment rights if they don’t get their way at the polls.[/li][li]A former Governor and former Vice Presidential candidate “tweeted” “Don’t Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!”[/li][li]An elected Representative told her constituents she wanted them “armed and dangerous” over a political issue.[/li][li]An elected Representative quoted Thomas Jefferson, saying we need to have a freaking \*revolution \*every so many years.[/li][/ul]Sarah Palin’s map with crosshairs aimed at specific members of Congress cannot be viewed as a stand-alone gimmick, but needs to be seen as just one of many, many hate-inducing and violence-provoking imagery perpetuated by the Right for the past 2 years. > > These acts and statements are _intentionally_ inciteful. They are _meant_ to stir up not just anger, but hatred. And they’re spoken by people of influence. People who are looked up to as representing The People. By that very nature, they should be held to a higher standard in their rhetoric than the average nutjob with some poster board and a pen or access to an internet blog. Taken as a whole, it’s difficult to deny that the Right has been creating an atmosphere where this kind of act should not have come as a surprise, _even if there are no “direct” lines that can be drawn to any “specific” one person, image or statement_. … There’s an oft’ repeated wish when things like this occur “Please, don’t this guy be one of ‘ours’”. Congratulations, he’s not one of yours . . . this time. Given that, it seems to me (as others have pointed out) that if there really isn’t anything objectionable about the list above, an awful lot of time is being spent explaining it away. “Oh no, what Angle really meant by “Second Amendment solutions” was [marches and protests](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13339922#post13339922), but she really wasn’t talking about people actually being shot.” Of course this doesn’t explain her other comment noting the short supply of real live gun ammunition . . . I’m sure she was just concerned that those stockpiling ammo might get lead poisoning, > [@](#): > > “What is a little bit disconcerting and concerning is the inability for sporting goods stores to keep ammunition in stock,” she {Sharron Angle} said. "That tells me the nation is arming. What are they arming for if it isn’t that they are so distrustful of their government? They’re afraid they’ll have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways? > > “That’s why I look at this as almost an imperative. If we don’t win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?”[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.rgj.com/article/20100530/NEWS19/5300350/1232/Sharron-Angle-s-conservative-credentials-wins-support-of-activist-armyIn)[/RIGHT] Guess a different kind of lead poisoning was on her mind. No, no single one of the statements, on that incomplete list, is the equivalent of dumping the contents of a [honey truck](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_truck) into the well of civil discourse, they’re just a series of individuals taking a shit in the well. Which, in the end of course, has the same effect. What if he had been one of ‘ours’? Do we really need _that_ to happen before we all can agree that some “rhetoric” does go too far? CMC fnord! > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I wager 15 quatloos that the newcomer is untrainable. … Trying to get a piece of my action? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > 500 quatloos that the newcomer is untrainable and will have to be destroyed. > ^:dubious:^ ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/522 "2011-01-13T00:20:25Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > …where it’s easier to get a gun than it is to get treatment for mental health problems.\*\* \*This \*is what is fucked up. So, do you believe this is a 2-part problem whereby the availability of guns and mental illness share the responsibility about 50/50, or is one or the other more the issue here? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/523 "2011-01-13T00:27:15Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > What? The? FUCK? The Left “shares blame” for the mentally ill not thinking they need help? How on G-d’s green earth is that even _possible_? We’re capable of _mind control_ now? 😕 That confused me too. Isn’t the Left always making up new disabilities and syndromes that need to be treated with federal money when the Right thinks the “afflicted” just need to cowboy up and soldier on? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/524 "2011-01-13T00:33:41Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > … What? The? FUCK? The Left “shares blame” for the mentally ill not thinking they need help? How on G-d’s green earth is that even _possible_? We’re capable of _mind control_ now? 😕 He’s most likely referring to the left’s adamant refusal to permit any expansion of government in community health matters. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/525 "2011-01-13T00:43:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You can find a transcript [here.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/12/sarah-palin-arizona-shooting-statement_n_807833.html) > > Choice quotes: I knew she’d find a way to make herself the victim out of all of this, all criticism is persecution in her narcissistic mind, but “blood libel?” I wasn’t expecting that. I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt and just assume she had no fucking idea what that phrase actually refers to. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/526 "2011-01-13T00:44:14Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > What’s to debate? “I agree” isn’t much debate material. What? The? FUCK? The Left “shares blame” for the mentally ill not thinking they need help? How on G-d’s green earth is that even _possible_? We’re capable of _mind control_ now? 😕 It’s odd that you didn’t quote the sentence that gave that claim some context: > [@Bricker](#): > > Much of the debate centered around the police’s thin justification and how the man had the right to offer such sentiments as “I’ll shoot myself,” without the police infringing his liberty. The left doesn’t share blame for the mentally ill not thinking they need help. The left shares blame for notions of personal rights that make it difficult to involuntarily commit a mentally ill person who needs help but does not realize it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/527 "2011-01-13T00:47:09Z")
That’s always the problem, isn’t it? The left and their damn insistence on personal rights. The right doesn’t want to pay for mental health treatment or commitments anyway, so that complaint is disingenuous, but just out of curiosity, who should decide whether a person needs to be committed, and how should those commitments be funded? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/528 "2011-01-13T00:48:18Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Isn’t the Left always making up new disabilities and syndromes that need to be treated with federal money… That’s the Pharmaceutical Industry. They back Republicans heavily. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/529 "2011-01-13T00:49:27Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > That confused me too. Isn’t the Left always making up new disabilities and syndromes that need to be treated with federal money when the Right thinks the “afflicted” just need to cowboy up and soldier on? > [@elucidator](#): > > He’s most likely referring to the left’s adamant refusal to permit any expansion of government in community health matters. Given that so many people missed my point, I’ll shoulder the blame for not explaining it clearly. But didn’t you kind of wonder what reason I had for bringing up the taser incident? Or did you think I was just randomly musing about some unrelated, amusing anecdote before turning my attention to the issue of care for the mentally ill? Anyway, let me make it clear: it’s not the right that fights against the ability of the government to detain and evaluate, involuntarily, people suspected of being dangers to themselves or others. (Well, the right may make it more difficult by fighting against funding for doctors, but the left makes it more difficult by fighting to expand the sphere of personal rights that make such commitment more difficult.) ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/530 "2011-01-13T00:51:36Z")
The right seems to want everyone to be sick, stupid and starving, and then pull themselves up by their bootstraps. If they haven’t eaten or sold them, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/531 "2011-01-13T00:54:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Given that so many people missed my point, I’ll shoulder the blame for not explaining it clearly. > > But didn’t you kind of wonder what reason I had for bringing up the taser incident? Or did you think I was just randomly musing about some unrelated, amusing anecdote before turning my attention to the issue of care for the mentally ill? > > Anyway, let me make it clear: it’s not the right that fights against the ability of the government to detain and evaluate, involuntarily, people suspected of being dangers to themselves or others. I assure you, the government already has this right. I’ve seen it happen several times, but the individual actually has to make an attempt or declare an intention to hurt themelves or others. There is no campaign by the left to prevent such people from being detained, just a lack of resources to evaluate and treat them. God forbid some Richie Rich has to pay a few extra cents in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/532 "2011-01-13T01:09:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s always the problem, isn’t it? The left and their damn insistence on personal rights. “Always?” No. “Often?” yes. In this case? Yes, although… > [@](#): > > The right doesn’t want to pay for mental health treatment or commitments anyway… Agreed. This is why I said “share” when referring to the blame. > [@](#): > > …who should decide whether a person needs to be committed, and how should those commitments be funded? Well, in my state, we have an involuntary commitment fund, which allows individuals without insurance to be held temporarily at even a private facility. I like that kind of solution. As to deciding the need… the law in my state requires a magistrate to get a doctor’s opinion before issuing the forty-eight hour hold. Since that is sometimes impossible to do on short notice, some necessary commitments just don’t happen. I’d say that as long as a law enforcement officer has probable cause to believe the individual is a danger to himself, to others, or cannot care for himself, that should be enough for a 48 hour hold. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/533 "2011-01-13T01:23:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s odd that you didn’t quote the sentence that gave that claim some context: Is that some kind of accusation of disingenuousness on my part? Because I’m here to tell you, the leading sentence bore no semblance of relevance to the following one. And the sentence that confused me and so many others had a subject and a predicate. IOW, it stood alone as a complete thought. And it made no damn sense! > [@Bricker](#): > > The left doesn’t share blame for the mentally ill not thinking they need help. The left shares blame for notions of personal rights that make it difficult to involuntarily commit a mentally ill person who needs help but does not realize it. Would you mind citing some evidence for this allegation, please? > [@Bricker](#): > > Given that so many people missed my point, I’ll shoulder the blame for not explaining it clearly. Oh, so if several people miss your point, you’ll take the blame. But when you assume I’m the only one who missed your point, I must have some ulterior motive. Gotcha ya. > [@Bricker](#): > > But didn’t you kind of wonder what reason I had for bringing up the taser incident? Or did you think I was just randomly musing about some unrelated, amusing anecdote before turning my attention to the issue of care for the mentally ill? Condescend much? We couldn’t figure out what the hell you meant. It’s really that simple. You could have said anything you wanted just prior to that sentence. It still wouldn’t have made a lick of sense. > [@Bricker](#): > > Anyway, let me make it clear: it’s not the right that fights against the ability of the government to detain and evaluate, involuntarily, people suspected of being dangers to themselves or others. (Well, the right may make it more difficult by fighting against funding for doctors, but the left makes it more difficult by fighting to expand the sphere of personal rights that make such commitment more difficult.) Again, cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/534 "2011-01-13T01:27:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I assure you, the government already has this right. I’ve seen it happen several times, but the individual actually has to make an attempt or declare an intention to hurt themelves or others. There is no campaign by the left to prevent such people from being detained, just a lack of resources to evaluate and treat them. God forbid some Richie Rich has to pay a few extra cents in taxes. In the earlier thread, there was plenty of opinion that the threat to shoot yourself was (or should not be) sufficient to commit someone – what if the guy was joking? > [@Yet another unjustified tasering by idiot cop](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/215): > > I watched the long version and all I see is a pissed off guy, in pain, who made a silly statement. The kind of statement any one of us might make when some unfortunate accident befalls us. A variant of an old “I already have one broken leg, might as well double down” statement of fatalistic irony. Thereupon, due to (i) an excess of zeal and/or (ii) a hyper-inflated need to cover-my-ass and/or (iii) an inability to substitute a reasonable interpretation of the situation for a superficial pro-forma requirement for actions, the poor guy is subjected to further pain and indignity including multiple electrical shocks, handcuffing, being forced to lie back on his handcuffed arms, and additional restraints. Everybody is lucky he didn’t actually have a heart attack. I don’t think that anyone can reasonably maintain that this whole dog and pony show was any benefit to him. > > So my question remains: given the situation, and given the laws and the guidelines in place, and given these exact circumstances as they presented; How could our laws be modified so that the outcome for **this guy** would be better? And could that modification be made while ensuring that outcomes for other people who have been well served by the present laws and guidelines will not be negatively affected? This is where the left needs to take some share of the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/535 "2011-01-13T01:37:38Z")
This might be a libertarian-authoritarian divide. The left and the right both typically accuse the other of being authoritarian and themselves as libertarian, and I would think libertarians would tend to oppose the excesses of involuntary commitment. But as innumerable threads on this message board have shown, there are libertarians and authoritarians on both the left and the right. See also “Kelo v New London”. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/536 "2011-01-13T01:37:53Z")
Congratulations **CannyDan**! You are officially “The Left”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/537 "2011-01-13T01:45:24Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Again, cite, please. [http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-07-15/news/fl-aclu-sues-for-seized-weapons-20100715\_1\_aclu-petitions-court-guns-sheriff](http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-07-15/news/fl-aclu-sues-for-seized-weapons-20100715_1_aclu-petitions-court-guns-sheriff) [http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/tstmnyHB15940308.pdf](http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/tstmnyHB15940308.pdf) [http://www.riaclu.org/News/Releases/20060125.html](http://www.riaclu.org/News/Releases/20060125.html) > [@](#): > > California’s current system is exemplitive of that imbalance, especially considering that symptoms of mental illness can deprive the individual victim of the free will necessary to enjoy that liberty. In some cases, it appears as if the liberty is given to the psychosis to benefit a philosophy that values esoteric interpretations of liberty over life itself. From [http://www.desertpacific.mirecc.va.gov/news/lps-reform.shtml](http://www.desertpacific.mirecc.va.gov/news/lps-reform.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/538 "2011-01-13T01:47:55Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Congratulations **CannyDan**! You are officially “The Left”. The thread is six pages long and CannyDan’s opinion is not unique. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/539 "2011-01-13T01:49:00Z")
Andyou know that this is bullshit. I don’t sit here saying, “What?? The right wanted to cut mental health funding? Cite? Cite?” I know it, generally, to be true. Would that my opponents would extend the same general courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/540 "2011-01-13T02:02:04Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > one question: When did we stop being sheep and become mice? I must have missed the memo. [When pigs took to wing](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ocL71KZn9w&feature=related). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104.md?page=28)