# Sarah Palin takes no responsibility for the Tucson shootings? Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104 "2011-01-10T16:09:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/101 "2011-01-10T20:50:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no idea what this means. That’s not a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/102 "2011-01-10T20:51:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Bricker** , you’re doing it again. Craig Kilborn, who left the Daily Show at the end of 1998, did this bit in 2000 as host of The Late Late Show, which he left in 2004. I’m guessing that Kilborn, who more recently hosted a show on Fox, not that it matters, is a liberal, but he is not the liberal icon that Jon Stewart is. This kind of shit has earned you a reputation for dishonesty that frequently outweighs the good arguments you make. All right, my mistake. I knew Kilborn did it, and I didn’t realize he had left the Daily Show when he did it. Kilborn, _who once hosted the Daily Show_, did it. Everybody’s panties unbunched now? Or are we going to continue to move goal posts with this “Well, sure, Jon Stewart is a liberal icon as the current host of the Daily Show, but Craig Kilborn’s a meaningless nobody!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/103 "2011-01-10T20:52:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s not a rebuttal. Correct. It’s a request to refine or further explain the argument, since I don’t understand it. It neither rebuts nor concedes the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/104 "2011-01-10T20:55:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All right, my mistake. I knew Kilborn did it, and I didn’t realize he had left the Daily Show when he did it. > > Kilborn, _who once hosted the Daily Show_, did it. > > _Everybody’s panties unbunched now?_ > > Or are we going to continue to move goal posts with this “Well, sure, Jon Stewart is a liberal icon as the current host of the Daily Show, but Craig Kilborn’s a meaningless nobody!” Considering you were already caught with your pants down on your Baldwin quote, you might want to refrain on giving fashion lectures. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/105 "2011-01-10T20:56:45Z")
Do _you_ think Craig Kilborn is a liberal icon? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/106 "2011-01-10T21:03:12Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Considering you were already caught with your pants down on your Baldwin quote, you might want to refrain on giving fashion lectures. Yes, I was. Fair enough. And when I’m wrong, I’ll admit it, and modify both my positions and statements accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/107 "2011-01-10T21:04:15Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Do _you_ think Craig Kilborn is a liberal icon? 😕 I think he’s on the left, yes. As far as iconography goes, his career hasn’t soared like Stewart’s but he’s not a nobody. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/108 "2011-01-10T21:08:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think he’s on the left, yes. As far as iconography goes, his career hasn’t soared like Stewart’s but he’s not a nobody. Neither is he a vice presidential nominee. Or really anything at all, except a trivia question. Incidentally, [David Frum](http://www.frumforum.com/what-palin-needed-to-say-after-giffords-shooting) has put it as well as anyone: > [@](#): > > Palin failed to appreciate the question being posed to her. That question was not: “Are you culpable for the shooting?” The question was: “Having put this unfortunate image on the record, can you respond to the shooting in a way that demonstrates your larger humanity? And possibly also your potential to serve as leader of the entire nation?” Answer: No. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/109 "2011-01-10T21:12:19Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Neither is he a vice presidential nominee. Or really anything at all, except a trivia question. > > Incidentally, [David Frum](http://www.frumforum.com/what-palin-needed-to-say-after-giffords-shooting) has put it as well as anyone: > > Answer: No. Eh. Any pol worth her salt has speech writers for that. Proves nothing other than Frum trying score political points off this tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/110 "2011-01-10T21:13:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The host of the Daily Show did it. As others have pointed out, that’s a pretty deceptive way to describe it. And even so, I condemn it. Craig Kilborn should not have done that. > [@](#): > > And I don’t believe it’s realistic to say, “Hey, we wash our hands of these media figures, but your failed VP candidate should be understood to control the hearts and minds of all her listeners.” Interestingly, I’m not saying that. But again, you’re speaking in half-truths. Yes, Sarah Palin is clearly, technically, a “failed VP candidate”… but she’s also a nationally prominent and respected figure, one frequently mentioned as a likely future presidential candidate. She’s one of the top 5 most prominent and influential current republicans, probably top 2, arguably top 1. As I said, I’m not saying that Sarah Palin “should be understood to control the hearts and minds of all her listeners.” I do not hold her personally directly responsible for what happened. I do not think that she should be charged with accessory to murder, or incitement, or fighting words. I certainly don’t think that she should face censorship of any sort. I do, however, think that people have a responsibility to be aware of the possible results of what they say. There are various factors which influence how dire those results might be, including: -what type of people are in your audience -how many people are in your audience -the extent to which you can accurately know the above -the political atmosphere in which you are speaking -what words and phrases you use -the context in which your audience is interpreting those words and phrases (ie, if you’ve mentioned guns and gun rights a number of times already in the speech, and then say you want to “target” your opponent, that has a different implication than using the word “target” in an otherwise purely-political-strategy discussion.) Also, you skipped over the most important part of my previous email: > [@me](#): > > What is your claim? That the levels are equal or close to equal? I disagree. That, whatever the levels actually are, MaxThevool is not a totally objective analyzer of them? Cheerfully conceded, as long as you admit that Bricker isn’t either. That all public figures should be careful about such rhetoric? I agree, except that expressing it in terms of “all” can be a weaselly way to imply equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/111 "2011-01-10T21:21:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. Any pol worth her salt has speech writers for that. Proves nothing other than Frum trying score political points off this tragedy. Frum is a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/112 "2011-01-10T21:24:21Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Neither is he a vice presidential nominee. Or really anything at all, except a trivia question. > > Incidentally, [David Frum](http://www.frumforum.com/what-palin-needed-to-say-after-giffords-shooting) has put it as well as anyone: > > Answer: No. That _is_ well put. My respect for David Frum went up a notch. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/113 "2011-01-10T21:24:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or are we going to continue to move goal posts with this “Well, sure, Jon Stewart is a liberal icon as the current host of the Daily Show, but Craig Kilborn’s a meaningless nobody!” Is that really moving the goalposts, though? The Daily Show under Kilborn was a much different creature than it is now. Back then, it wasn’t much different than “Talk Soup” for pop culture, with a much much stronger focus on celebrity gossip and “News of the Weird” happenings. Stewart made it extremely political and topical. By equating Kilborn with the Daily Show, you’re trying to attach the modern understanding and political weight it carries to him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/114 "2011-01-10T21:29:33Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Frum is a Republican. I know. The only people who hate SP more than the folks on the left are the mainstream Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/115 "2011-01-10T21:31:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It sounds like part of Sean Connery’s speech in “The Untouchables” about “The Chicago Way”: > > I’m reluctant to search on “Obama”, “gun”, “knife” here at work. Understandably, I hope. So I don’t know if Obama actually said that. [Politifact](http://politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/nov/17/joyce-kaufman/radio-host-joyce-kaufman-said-obama-tote-gun/)did it for you and rated it “true”. Joyce Kaufman actually used Obama’s statement as an example of how this kind of speech is purely metaphorical when she was accused of being inflammatory for her statement: “I don’t care how this gets painted by the mainstream media, I don’t care if this shows up on YouTube, because I am convinced that the most important thing the Founding Fathers did to ensure me my First Amendment rights was they gave me a Second Amendment. And if ballots don’t work, bullets will.” ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/116 "2011-01-10T21:32:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I know. The only people who hate SP more than the folks on the left are the mainstream Republicans. I’d argue that you’re defining “mainstream Republicans” extremely narrowly with this assertion, given her ubiquity/popularity on Fox News (among other things), but that would be too much of a hijack for the thread. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/117 "2011-01-10T21:34:54Z")
> [@C3](#): > > “I don’t care how this gets painted by the mainstream media, I don’t care if this shows up on YouTube, because I am convinced that the most important thing the Founding Fathers did to ensure me my First Amendment rights was they gave me a Second Amendment. And if ballots don’t work, bullets will.” So in other words… If “my” guy doesn’t win, I’ll shoot the guy who did win??? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/118 "2011-01-10T21:38:15Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > So in other words… If “my” guy doesn’t win, I’ll shoot the guy who did win??? Nah…“bullets” is just a metaphor for “citizen involvement and solidarity.” ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/119 "2011-01-10T21:40:22Z")
> [@Walmarticus](#): > > this is getting so annoying. Now, instead of political parties targeting seats, they will _survey and mark_ them. I dislike Palin as much as the next guy, but you people need to stop this shit. > > Targets exist. They are common symbols one might use to geographically mark a location of interest. Only exceedingly rarely does a target imply murder. You people are paranoid, conspiracy theorists. > > I normally wouldn’t give a shit about criticism directed at rhetoricians. But for Christ’s sake, this is some sad shit. Let’s react with class, dignity and integrity. At the very least, wait a little while before you start trying to score points against the other side. > > Who knows, you might even have something more incrementing than _omg look at da gunsights HUUUUUUURRRR!!!_ Why were they crosshairs, instead of stars, dots, squares, or some other sort of demarcation? ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/120 "2011-01-10T21:45:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Can you provide an example of the use of the word “crosshairs” that doesn’t imply the use of a gunsight? As far as I know, the only common usage of the word and image of “crosshairs” is their meaning (literal or metaphorical) of “component of a gunsight”. > > I’m aware that, as the Palin team is spinning it, there are also crosshairs in surveyors’ equipment, but I absolutely defy you to find an example of such a usage in popular culture, as opposed to specifically surveying venues. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard people say “he’s got (blank) in the crosshairs”. Whether a quarterback, comedian, competitor, cute girl or whatever, the word is commonly used as a metaphor to connote focus and attention. It’s probably the most common word for the cross-inside-circle shape as well. Hell, I’d bet _reticle_ is even more common than _gunsight._ _Gunsight_, I think, is much more literal. The word can’t stray to far from the gun. To describe my opinion with a stupid illustration: A search for [crosshair](http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1344&bih=615&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=crosshair&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) yields a few weapons and lots of sneakers, sunglasses and motherboards. A search for [gunsight](http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&biw=1344&bih=615&gbv=2&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=gunsight&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) yields primarily weapons and hills named Gunsight, apparently. Huh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104.md?page=7)