# Sarah Palin takes no responsibility for the Tucson shootings? Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104 "2011-01-10T16:09:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/161 "2011-01-11T03:52:39Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > As stated earlier, the DLC map targets specific states in a presidential election - there wouldn’t BE any names to attach to it. Target a state - fine. Target a specific person with crosshairs? Slightly different, don’t you think? Yeah, there’s a difference. I’m just trying to understand if there is enough of a difference to make one OK and one not OK. \*\*Bo \*\*offered an explanation about why he thought one site was OK. Do you agree with him? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/162 "2011-01-11T03:58:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, there’s a difference. I’m just trying to understand if there is enough of a difference to make one OK and one not OK. \*\*Bo \*\*offered an explanation about why he thought one site was OK. Do you agree with him? So you see the difference between the two, but are unable to make any decision about how that difference relates to anything else? What does your moral compass tell you, **John Mace** , about the differences between the two methods of delineating an election goal and whether or not one may be more or less appropriate than the other? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/163 "2011-01-11T04:03:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, why can’t those inbred retards participate in reasoned political discourse like the rest of us? Why bother? They’re denying, backpedalling and obfuscating. So, since the cowardice and dishonesty is readily apparent, why bother? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/164 "2011-01-11T04:14:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, there’s a difference. I’m just trying to understand if there is enough of a difference to make one OK and one not OK. \*\*Bo \*\*offered an explanation about why he thought one site was OK. Do you agree with him? Battlefield language is pretty common in politics. It’s an easy analogy to use, and it makes sense on a national scale. The more you narrow your scope, the more I think it becomes a little too morbid, the rhetoric a little too close and personal. I’m not sure if there’s a clear demarcation, but Palin’s map definitely crossed it. I remember seeing it when it came out and being pretty disgusted with it. However, there was a lot of pretty blatant language coming out at that time. Starting with the town hall meetings over the summer Congressional break of '09 when people were showing up with assault rifles and into the heated election year of 2010, there seemed to be a very strong pander to not just 2nd Amendment supporters, but the fringe militia-type supporters. Glenn Beck certainly wasn’t helping (odd, that…), Bachmann was whipping her supporters into a frenzy, Palin starts talking about reloading… It all adds up. In that sort of context, I would probably demonize the DLC’s map as well for adding to the problem. But the left doesn’t really have voting blocs where gun language can be used effectively or for a specific purpose, and again - that DLC map was national and didn’t target any specific individual. And most importantly, the DLC isn’t a national office holder or vocal ideologist with a massive audience. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/165 "2011-01-11T04:14:49Z")
I’d like to add, what place does brandishing weapons and threatening second amendment solutions and taking out people etc have in “reasoned discourse”? I call bullshit on the idea that only one side of the coin has to make nice nice. I think it’s all bullshit anyway. Of the several “good Amurricans” who were gonna kick my sorry librul ass, I’m still waiting to see even one make good on it or even TRY to. Sorry ass trash talking cowards. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/166 "2011-01-11T04:20:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So you see the difference between the two, but are unable to make any decision about how that difference relates to anything else? I’m just trying to understand the rules, according to **Bo**. Gun imagery is OK as long as it’s not associated with a particular individual. Is that correct? Personally, I would say that gun imagery is not OK under any circumstances. I guess you have loser standards. That’s fine, as long as you can make a coherent argument as to why. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/167 "2011-01-11T04:23:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m just trying to understand the rules, according to **Bo**. > > Gun imagery is OK as long as it’s not associated with a particular individual. Is that correct? > > Personally, I would say that gun imagery is not OK under any circumstances. I guess you have loser standards. That’s fine, as long as you can make a coherent argument as to why. I see a difference in targeting a state for an election win, and targetting a person with crosshairs and the statement that they are “someone who needs to be brought down”. And I don’t have loser standards at all. My standards are totally winner standards. Incidentally, why is that you think I’m the only person who sees the discrepancy about this? Haven’t you been reading the responses in this thread before page 4? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/168 "2011-01-11T04:25:50Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’d like to add, what place does brandishing weapons and threatening second amendment solutions and taking out people etc have in “reasoned discourse”? It doesn’t. [quote=] I call bullshit on the idea that only one side of the coin has to make nice nice. I think it’s all bullshit anyway. Of the several “good Amurricans” who were gonna kick my sorry librul ass, I’m still waiting to see even one make good on it or even TRY to. Sorry ass trash talking cowards. [/QUOTE] Just to be clear, I wasn’t calling for only one side to make nice. I was pointing out the irony of one side asking the other side to make nice while calling them “inbred retards”. I would have thought that was obvious on a board known for the intelligence of the average poster. Perhaps not. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/169 "2011-01-11T04:27:00Z")
Apparently some Republicans think it’s OK to talk about shooting Democrats, but it’s very much NOT OK to talk about who those Republicans are: [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/gop-senator-urges-media-talk-palins-violent-rhetoric/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/gop-senator-urges-media-talk-palins-violent-rhetoric/) Now I know this sounds a lot like GOPers trying to force the rest of us to live by _their_ pc-speak rules, but apparently there’s a full justification for their position _somewhere in the constitution_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/170 "2011-01-11T04:29:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It doesn’t. > Just to be clear, I wasn’t calling ofr only one side to make nice. I was pointing out the irony of one side asking the other side to make nice while calling them “inbred retards”. OK, does “lying spineless cowards” fit better? * * * [http://alaskadispatch.com/blogs/palin-watch/8205-palin-staffer-calls-using-tragedy-to-score-political-points-obscene](http://alaskadispatch.com/blogs/palin-watch/8205-palin-staffer-calls-using-tragedy-to-score-political-points-obscene) via > **[Progressive news and media coverage on Crooks and Liars](https://crooksandliars.com/)** > > A progressive news blog focusing on political events and the news coverage of them \*“We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights,” she said. “It’s surveyor’s symbols,” the interviewer Tammy Bruce suggested. Bruce, a Palin supporter, describes herself as "a gay, pro-choice, gun owning, pro-death penalty, Tea Party Independent Conservative. " Her show is promoted as a “chick with a gun and a microphone.” Mansour agreed. She said that the graphic was contracted out to a professional. They approved it quickly without thinking about it. “We never imagined, it never occurred to us that anybody would consider it violent,” she said. Rather, she said, that it was simply “crosshairs that you would see on a map.” There is “nothing irresponsible about our graphic,” she said. ## She did not, however, mention the “don’t retreat, instead- RELOAD!” Palin tweet that went out shortly after the graphic was posted on both her Facebook page and SarahPac’s website, directing them to the graphic. The tweet turned quickly into a Palin mantra. Many, even then, urged her to stop using such violent rhetoric. If she heard them, she did not retreat.\* And the sites that so proudly used to have “liberal hunting licenses” are busy taking them down now. If they were so proud of them last week, well shit! Leave them up now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/171 "2011-01-11T04:30:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I see a difference in targeting a state for an election win, and targetting a person with crosshairs and the statement that they are “someone who needs to be brought down”. > > And I don’t have loser standards at all. My standards are totally winner standards. Eh. I’ve never claimed to be a good speller. If you argument rests on the fact that I misspelled a word, then that’s the thinnest of ice indeed. To the issue at hand… We both recognize a difference. I’m just trying to establish, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are OK with gun imagery as part of the political discourse as long as no individual names are mentioned. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/172 "2011-01-11T04:32:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. I’ve never claimed to be a good speller. If you argument rests on the fact that I misspelled a word, then that’s the thinnest of ice indeed. > > To the issue at hand… We both recognize a difference. I’m just trying to establish, without any shadow of a doubt, that you are OK with gun imagery as part of the political discourse as long as no individual names are mentioned. Is that right? You’re statement does not accurately reflect my thoughts on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/173 "2011-01-11T04:38:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You’re statement does not accurately reflect my thoughts on this matter. So you are retracting your response to \*\*Bricker \*\*where you offered an explanation as to why it was OK? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/174 "2011-01-11T04:41:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So you are retracting your response to \*\*Bricker \*\*where you offered an explanation as to why it was OK? That wasn’t what **Bricker** asked, nor was it in my reply. Perhaps you could go back and quote me saying that something was OK? Surely you can do that, right? Surely you haven’t been pussyfooting around, trying to get me in a "gotcha"moment, right? Surely you aren’t making shit up, and then trying to make me defend things I haven’t said, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/175 "2011-01-11T04:42:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Can you provide an example of the use of the word “crosshairs” that doesn’t imply the use of a gunsight? As far as I know, the only common usage of the word and image of “crosshairs” is their meaning (literal or metaphorical) of “component of a gunsight”. > > I’m aware that, as the Palin team is spinning it, there are also crosshairs in surveyors’ equipment, but I absolutely defy you to find an example of such a usage in popular culture, as opposed to specifically surveying venues. from the very [first](http://www.ehow.com/how_4883855_use-transit-level.html) hit when Googling “Use of a transit” > [@](#): > > The cross hairs of the transit… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/176 "2011-01-11T04:42:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It doesn’t. > Just to be clear, I wasn’t calling for only one side to make nice. I was pointing out the irony of one side asking the other side to make nice while calling them “inbred retards”. I would have thought that was obvious on a board known for the intelligence of the average poster. Perhaps not. So which side is all butt hurt now because others are calling them on this second amendment bullshit? Last week it was second amendment let’s shoot somebody take the country back kill a commie hunt a liberal. Right? Right? Don’t lecture me about civility. I’m not so damn stupid I don’t “get” the imagery. But I am also not so stupid that I can’t “get it” when the same people NOW start taking down, hiding and denying what they were so DAMN proud of not that long ago. I hate the hypocrisy of it and the cowardice of it. That’s right, cowardice. Either you believed it or you didn’t. Either you meant it and stand by it or you didn’t. Anything less can get the fuck out. I’d rather have an honest enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/177 "2011-01-11T04:52:39Z")
I think everyone’s anger at Palin is misguided. Jared Loughner didn’t act out because of any rhetoric Sarah Palin spewed. Rather he was a creation of everything she and every other right-wing conservative stands for these days: destroy public services (including the publically-funded mental health programs that could’ve helped this guy receive treatment) and guarantee a gun in the hands of everyone who wants it. Forget all the right-wing rhetoric. Sarah Palin’s crosshairs and Glenn Beck’s chalkboard nonsense didn’t set this guy off. _Over-the-top rhetoric_ didn’t cause this guy to target public officials. It’s the right-wing public policies that did. The shameful way we’ve eliminated mental health programs from state budgets that did. And the “don’t-you-ever-dare-limit-gun-ownership” bullshit that did. That’s not to say all of this right-wing rhetoric won’t set someone off in an act of violence at some point-- it may or may not-- but Saturday’s act of violence was carried out by a mentally ill man who had absolutely no business owning a gun or being able to walk into a fucking Walmart and buy boxes of ammo. The victims of Saturday’s bloodbath fell prey to conservative policies and legislation run amok in the Wild West. The lesson we need to learn from this: Our country needs to pay more attention to treating the mentall ill-- government-run social services \*aren’t \*a bad thing, they keep society at large safe and productive; and we need to stop being so fucking obsessed with being fucking allowed to own a fucking gun. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/178 "2011-01-11T05:01:49Z")
I’m honestly wondering if anyone has had a rational response yet for this: > [@friedo](#): > > Please explain what responsibility Palin bears for a psychotic nutball shooting up a Congressional photo-op at a grocery store. I think it’s a crucial step we sort of skipped. Or, maybe I skipped it in reading the thread. No trick, just deliver a quote. And I’m on board with **Happy Lendervedder** 100%! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/179 "2011-01-11T05:03:46Z")
It’s gone past that now. I know that psycho ca’t be pinned on Palin, and I never said he should be. HOWEVER!!! (stamp foot for emphasis) The postuirng and threats that were so “cool” until this week are not going to be fogotten NOW. Not since someone HAS been murdered. All people had to do, to placate me, woulod have been something like “we realize our hunting stickers and crosshair cartoons were in poor taste and are taking them down.” Or, some empty but at least polite gesture of condolences. Instead we have a lot of crap about “I never said” when we know better or “I never meant” when we know better. Fuck that. You all meant plenty of it last week. didntcha [http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/06/sharron\_angle\_floated\_possibil.html](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/06/sharron_angle_floated_possibil.html) > [@](#): > > Sharron Angle floated possibility of armed insurrection > > … In an interview in January, Angle appeared to float the possibility of armed insurrection if “this Congress keeps going the way it is.” > > I’m not kidding. In an interview she gave to a right-wing talk show host, Angle approvingly quoted Thomas Jefferson saying it’s good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years – and said that if Congress keeps it up, people may find themselves resorting to “Second Amendment remedies.”… Asked by the host, Lars Larson of Portland, Oregon, where she stands on Second Amendment issues, Angle replied: > > ``` > You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason ... I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out. > > ``` > > Larson says Angle was floating the possibility of armed insurrection if Congress keeps it up under Reid et al. > > “If it continues to do the things it’s doing, I think she’s leaving open that possibility,” Larson said. … [http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/06/16/second-amendment-remedies-that-suggests-treason/](http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/06/16/second-amendment-remedies-that-suggests-treason/) > [@](#): > > ‘Second Amendment remedies’? That suggests treason > > … However, no amount of makeup or image polishing can disguise the ugliness of some of her ideas. Consider, for example, her statement about the Second Amendment and Congress a few months ago during an interview with a conservative radio host… However, to cite “Second Amendment remedies” as a way to “correct” the acts of a duly elected Congress and duly elected president is to suggest treason. And that’s just what Angle and her ilk are doing. … People who spout such nonsense are not patriotic Americans; they are not lovers of liberty or believers in the rule of law or self-governance. By claiming the right to impose their viewpoints through violence rather than the ballot box, they seek to become the very tyrants they claim to oppose, and wrapping their ugliness in the American flag does nothing to change its vile character. > > In fact, it makes it more offensive. It looks pretty clear to me. Armed revolt, the killing (taking out) of Reid (and probably others) and I imagine her installment as ruler. Or something. Then there is Palin’s “don’t retreat, reload”. And the following [http://mountainsageblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/2009-06-12-LiberalHuntingSticker.jpg](http://mountainsageblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/2009-06-12-LiberalHuntingSticker.jpg) [![](http://www.irregularnews.com/liberalhunt.jpg) ](http://www.irregularnews.com/liberalhunt.jpg) [![](https://live.staticflickr.com/17/21550917_2a6e32749b.jpg?v=0) ](https://live.staticflickr.com/17/21550917_2a6e32749b.jpg?v=0) Last week, I found these pictures ALMOST amusing. They ain’t so damn funny anymore, are they. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104/180 "2011-01-11T05:09:48Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > from the very [first](http://www.ehow.com/how_4883855_use-transit-level.html) hit when Googling “Use of a transit” How does one “reload” a transit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarah-palin-takes-no-responsibility-for-the-tucson-shootings-really/567104.md?page=10)