# Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634 "2004-05-17T17:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/41 "2004-05-18T00:19:13Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > > > Nobody here has said anything about “dozens of active factories mass producing weapons to attack America.” And we certainly haven’t equated this one shell with such things. > > “Should we now all agree that Saddam was a bad boy bent on evil, or shall we continue our silly rationalizations which posit that Uncle Saddam didn’t have any mean illegal weapons?” > > It was even in bold. Strawman it is, then. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/42 "2004-05-18T00:24:25Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Strawman it is, then. Waaaaaaaaaah ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/43 "2004-05-18T01:05:22Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Waaaaaaaaaah Wow. Having finally heard your position stated so eloquently, I can no longer deny the truth of your assertion. I yield before the intellect that can manage to type baby noises. Your mighty “Waaaaaaaaaah” has blown my argument into quarks. With one word – nay, one _syllable_, one _sound_ – you have managed to crush all my reasoning. Even the truth itself could not defeat baby noises typed with so many a’s. Perhaps worst of all, you didn’t even feel the need to end your mocking baby noises with an exclamation point. In fact, there was no punctuation at all. It’s as though the baby noises were delivered in a pitch-perfect deadpan. My very soul withers before such cleverness. My humiliation is complete. There is nothing left for me to do but leave the SDMB. I will now walk into the internet desert, where I will wander forever. Like in Kung Fu, only the violence has been done on the inside. And my wounds will never heal. “ **Zagadka**!” ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/44 "2004-05-18T01:06:44Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Wow. > > Having finally heard your position stated so eloquently, I can no longer deny the truth of your assertion. I yield before the intellect that can manage to type baby noises. > > Your mighty “Waaaaaaaaaah” has blown my argument into quarks. With one word – nay, one _syllable_, one _sound_ – you have managed to crush all my reasoning. > > Even the truth itself could not defeat baby noises typed with so many a’s. > > Perhaps worst of all, you didn’t even feel the need to end your mocking baby noises with an exclamation point. In fact, there was no punctuation at all. It’s as though the baby noises were delivered in a pitch-perfect deadpan. My very soul withers before such cleverness. > > My humiliation is complete. There is nothing left for me to do but leave the SDMB. I will now walk into the internet desert, where I will wander forever. Like in Kung Fu, only the violence has been done on the inside. And my wounds will never heal. > > “ **Zagadka**!” Yep, it is almost as powerful as, “straw man!” ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/45 "2004-05-18T01:16:45Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Strawman it is, then. Lets go back to this, since we got so far on the other hand. You come into a thread about saying that the explosion today is proof of WMD production as stated by the Bush Administration, and say that bringing up those statements is a strawman and declare victory? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/46 "2004-05-18T01:21:07Z")
Actually, a “[strawman](http://www.carm.org/apologetics/fallacies.htm)” argument has a distinct meaning. And you’ve provided a perfect example of it. But hey, I’m sure it was much easier for you to type in baby noises than it would have been to educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/47 "2004-05-18T01:26:05Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Should we now all agree that Saddam was a bad boy bent on evil, or shall we continue our silly rationalizations which posit that Uncle Saddam didn’t have any mean illegal weapons? 🙂 (1) Some of us…particularly those in groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch…actually knew Saddam was a bad boy bent on evil back in the days when good ol’ Rummy was cosying up to him! It didn’t really seem to make a big impression on the neocons back then though. (2) This war was sold to us on the premise that Saddam had sophisticated WMD programs and large stockpiles of such weapons and that these weapons posed a significant threat to the U.S. Some of us on these boards back before the war, admitting that we were just guessing, thought the truth might lie roughly halfway in between the claims of our President and the claims of a ruthless, cruel dictator…i.e., he has some WMDs but not as much as the President says and they don’t really pose a significant threat to us. Unless things change considerably, it appears that the only way in which we were incorrect was in this “roughly halfway” notion…We’d have hit much closer to the truth if we had just believed the word of the ruthless dictator over our President. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/48 "2004-05-18T01:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Or are you arguing that it’s harmless if used in the current manner? I’d be very interested to know if that’s true or if you can point me to a cite where I can learn more about it. Clearly it is not harmless. (I believe a couple members of the bomb squad were injured when this one went off.) However, as used, it had less ability to inflict harm than the standard mortar rounds that keep dropping in on people in Iraq (or used to drop in on the folks in Bosnia or Kosovo). If _every_ artillery round is a weapon of mass destruction, then the term has lost its meaning. President Bush warned that Hussein was going to arm himself with WoMDs and threaten the U.S. The idea that Hussein was going to load up a boat full of howitzers and rain sarin down on New York or Savannah is ludicrous. (Even Riyadh was respectably safe from this sort of weapon.) I suppose that if we choose to claim that every chemical weapon is clearly a WoMD, then we had better start disarming all our police forces who have stockpiles of CS sitting around for riot control. A _reasonable_ and meaningful definition of a WoMD would be one that can harm very large numbers of people (probably with the further stipulation that it should be able to be delivered from a distance (either through long-range systems or stealth). The 155 mm rounds do not fit either category, having a limited ability to inflict casualties and requiring a close and difficult-to-hide artillery arrangement to deliver. Even used at their most effective, this sort of artillery round requires that all the targets be herded together and held in place while the weapon is used–hardly an effective weapon. (In the only serious sarin attacks in history, it was released on two occasions in the closed confines of the Matsumoto and Tokyo subway systems and was able to kill a grand total of 19 people.) ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/49 "2004-05-18T01:28:16Z")
First of all, nobody said that “that the explosion today is proof of WMD production as stated by the Bush Administration.” That’s a [strawman](http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/acadwrite/logic.html). > [@](#): > > Straw Man: The writer does not attack the argument that the opposition sets forth. The arguer may attack one of the opposition’s points as if it were the whole argument, distort what the opposition is attempting to express, or exaggerate the opposition’s argument to the point of satirizing it. Second, I haven’t declared victory. I’ve just pointed out that you’re not actually responding to anyone’s arguments, other than the ones that you yourself have made up. Third, I’ve also made a few other points, but I’m sure you can’t be bothered to actually read and respond to what I’ve posted. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/50 "2004-05-18T01:28:30Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Actually, a “[strawman](http://www.carm.org/apologetics/fallacies.htm)” argument has a distinct meaning. And you’ve provided a perfect example of it. > > But hey, I’m sure it was much easier for you to type in baby noises than it would have been to educate yourself. We all know what a strawman is. But, usually the idea is that a “strawman” is brought up by the same person who then proceeds to demolish it. To use it as a term for what **Milum** brought up and we have proceeded to demolish is to misuse the term, unless you think **Milum** is being facetious. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/51 "2004-05-18T01:31:21Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Actually, a “[strawman](http://www.carm.org/apologetics/fallacies.htm)” argument has a distinct meaning. And you’ve provided a perfect example of it. > > But hey, I’m sure it was much easier for you to type in baby noises than it would have been to educate yourself. Still waiting for you to reply on any issues. I mean, by all means, waylay me with your proof that this is evidence of a program of creating WMD on a large scale since the last Gulf War. I’m waiting. No, go ahead. Please, I insist. The floor is all yours. (well, actually, Millie’s, but he doesn’t seem to ever actually read anythign anyone else writes) ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/52 "2004-05-18T01:49:42Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > We all know what a strawman is. No, apparently **Zagadka** has no idea what one is. Or do you also think it’s on par with responding with baby noises? I haven’t accused _everyone_ of constructing strawmen. Just **Zagadka**. For example, this latest one: > [@Zagadka](#): > > I mean, by all means, waylay me with your proof that this is evidence of a program of creating WMD on a large scale since the last Gulf War. **Zagadka** , if you can show me where I said anything that would lead you to the conclusion that I believe this one shell is part of “a program of creating WMD on a large scale since the last Gulf War,” then I will eat my shoe. > [@jshore](#): > > To use it as a term for what **Milum** brought up and we have proceeded to demolish is to misuse the term, unless you think **Milum** is being facetious. I do think **Milum** was being facetious (notice the smiley), but only a little. And I do think **Milum** was constructing a strawman of his/her own (as if anyone ever said that Saddam wasn’t a bad guy). But I think everyone (including **Milum** ) knew that it wasn’t supposed to be an accurate representation of the other side’s argument, and was just put out there to get the ball rolling. He set it up so that others could respond to it. So, in essence, I agree with you on this point. But I think if you read a few of **Zagadka** ’s posts, you’ll see the strawmen to which I’m referring. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/53 "2004-05-18T01:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > And I do think Milum was constructing a strawman of his/her own (as if anyone ever said that Saddam wasn’t a bad guy). But I think everyone (including Milum) knew that it wasn’t supposed to be an accurate representation of the other side’s argument, and was just put out there to get the ball rolling. He set it up so that others could respond to it. You know, I think there is a technical term for this, if I could just recall what it was. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/54 "2004-05-18T02:05:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You know, I think there is a technical term for this, if I could just recall what it was. Ask **Milum**. Maybe he knows. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/55 "2004-05-18T02:10:21Z")
“Floating the point”? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/56 "2004-05-18T02:15:42Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > No, apparently **Zagadka** has no idea what one is. Or do you also think it’s on par with responding with baby noises? > > I haven’t accused _everyone_ of constructing strawmen. Just **Zagadka**. For example, this latest one: **Zagadka** , if you can show me where I said anything that would lead you to the conclusion that I believe this one shell is part of “a program of creating WMD on a large scale since the last Gulf War,” then I will eat my shoe. I never said you said anything about it. I said that is what this thread is about. > [@](#): > > So, in essence, I agree with you on this point. But I think if you read a few of **Zagadka** ’s posts, you’ll see the strawmen to which I’m referring. Since I seem to be so misinformed, mayhap you would like to clarify exactly what the point of Millie’s post was, then, if not that this is proof of Saddam’s recent production of WMD? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/57 "2004-05-18T02:53:54Z")
By the way, thanks for the clarification, **tomndebb**. I hadn’t thought about the way that the chemicals were delivered, and how it adversely affected their impact. Very interesting stuff. But in all honesty, I wasn’t as reassured when I read [this, from Encarta online](http://encarta.msn.com/text_761558349__1/Chemical_and_Biological_Warfare.html) (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > In 1995 a Japanese cult called Aum Shinrikyo released sarin nerve agent in the Tokyo subway, killing 12 people and **injuring a few thousand**. Cult leaders reportedly told authorities that their choice of weapon was inspired by publicity about Iraq’s chemical arms. I’d imagine that the fact that these gasses sink is one of the things that made a subway attack so effective. But if the terrorists knew what they were doing in detonating (and perhaps constructing?) a chemical weapon, then I worry that that may bode ill for our troops. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/58 "2004-05-18T03:35:04Z")
This shell actually fits in with what we’ve found so far. A few relics from the Iran-Iraq War, but nothing that suggests any recent manufacturing. Remember, Bush sold this war on the claim that Iraq was actively producing these weapons, and had tens of thousands of tons of the stuff ready to go. Sorry, but one rusty old shell does not constitute an arsenal. Until more of these things start turning up, I’m going to assume that some insurgent found it in his attic and donated it to the cause. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/59 "2004-05-18T03:47:13Z")
Woah. If Saddam had ever strapped that fellah onto the front of a cruise missile he could have wiped out the whole population of Buttfuck, Idaho … if it landed on his house. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634/60 "2004-05-18T06:30:47Z")
From Information Clearing House daily newsletter: 1 YEAR - 38 DAYS … AND STILL NO WMD FOUND IN IRAQ. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sarin-nerve-agent-bomb-explodes-in-iraq/245634.md?page=4)