# Saruman cut from "Return of the King" theatrical release? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000 "2003-11-13T08:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/1 "2003-11-13T08:10:01Z")
If true, [this is weird](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3265475.stm). > [@](#): > > \*\*Actor Christopher Lee has said he was mystified to learn that his key scenes have been dropped from the third Lord of the Rings movie. > > Lee, 81, who plays the wizard Saruman in the trilogy, said he had expected to appear in seven minutes’ worth of climactic scenes. > > “Of course I am very shocked, that’s all I can say,” he told ITV1’s This Morning on Wednesday. \*\* I’m a bit shocked as well. There’s quite a bit left up in the air for Saruman, especially considering what was left out of the end of _The Two Towers_. I can’t imagine that they’d just ignore it. Is this just a rapidly-spreading internet rumor, or is it true? Someone posting on [Slashdot](http://slashdot.org/articles/03/11/12/2221236.shtml?tid=186&tid=188&tid=192&tid=199&tid=97) suggested that the cut scenes will show up in the ROTK Extended Edition DVD, which wouldn’t surprise me at all, but still… can they really just leave off with Saruman and still finish the story properly? I have my doubts… And seriously, how pissed off are the hardcore LOTR fans going to be about this? I predict effigies of Jackson going up in flames… ---
**Author:** ![ProjectOmega](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@ProjectOmega](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProjectOmega)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/2 "2003-11-13T08:53:18Z")
If the rumours are true, Jackson has been fighting the studios tooth and nail to leave that 7 minutes in, which depicts Saruman getting thrown off the Orthanc tower by Wormtongue, but since the movie already clocks in at 3.5 hours, I guess they’re leaving it up to the view to assume the Ents killed him or something. Honestly, the death of the second-biggest villain in the movie NEEDS his death shown on the big screen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/3 "2003-11-13T08:55:36Z")
Well, I’m sure it’ll be on the DVDs. But still… :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/4 "2003-11-13T08:56:56Z")
I’m not entirely sure about mod approval, since this is the text of a public e-mail from Peter Jacksonto Harry Knowles and not the whole article from Aint it Cool News. > [@](#): > > - > > Saruman thing you describe is a muddle of half-truths. > > We have decided to save the Saruman sequence for the DVD. It’s a great little scene. 7 mins long. Chris is wonderful, as usual. Brad is in about 6 shots. It was a film maker decision - nothing to do with the studio. > > The problem is that the sequence was originally shot for The Two Towers, as it is in the book. Since The Two Towers couldn’t sustain a 7 min “wrap” after Helm’s Deep, we thought it would be a good idea to save it for the beginning of the Return of the King. The trouble is, when we viewed various ROTK cuts over the last few weeks, it feels like the first scenes are wrapping last year’s movie, instead of starting the new one. We felt it got ROTK off to an uncertain beginning, since Saruman plays no role in the events of ROTK (we don’t have the Scouring later, as the book does), yet we dwell in Isengard for quite a long time before our new story kicks off. > > We reluctantly made the decision to save this sequence for the DVD. The choice was made on the basis that most people will assume that Saruman was vanquished by the Helm’s Deep events, and Ent attack. We can now crack straight into setting up the narrative tension of ROTK, which features Sauron as the villian. > > It was a very similar situation to last year when we decided to take a nice Boromir/Denethor flashback out of The Two Towers, and put it in the DVD. It was causing us pacing problems in the theatrical version, but with the Extended Cut just coming out now, fans can see this great little scene. Thank God for DVD, since it does mean that a version of the movie, which has different pacing requirements, can be released later. The Saruman sequence will definately be a highlight of the Extended ROTK DVD. > > We have a lot of great DVD material this time around. As we crafted the movie, we reduced it from an over 4 hour running time, down to 3.12 (without credits - about 8 mins long). This was done by us. There were no studio cutting notes. We now have a movie with a pace that fells ok for it’s theatrical release. One more week to go. We are nearly there. Will we still be standing? It’s going to be a close run thing. > > Cheers, > > Peter J - ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/5 "2003-11-13T13:46:06Z")
If they went ahead and fabricated an entirely new scene where Saruman gets killed in some new, other way, I don’t see how it matters WHAT they show or don’t show. (It’s in the DVD!? How about a DVD where all the scenes that aren’t in the book are removed!) How timely a _Scouring of the Shire_ scene would have been! An illegitimate leader grabs power, divvying out the benefits only to his closest supporters, whose tough-guy posturings keep the proletariat obedient … ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/6 "2003-11-13T13:56:35Z")
Yeah, but he’s right that it wouldn’t work on film. With the epic battle sequences and the destruction of the ring the audience would be a bit bemused to see the story continue. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/7 "2003-11-13T13:59:56Z")
Oh please. To both PJ and RTA. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/8 "2003-11-13T14:04:15Z")
Thanks for posting that e-mail, **Silentgoldfish** … I hadn’t seen that. I can sort of see his point about pacing, but I still feel like it’s going to feel awfully… unresolved. Plus, we already know that Saruman’s palantir is definitely in. Did it just magically appear amongst the Fellowship’s things? No, Wormtongue threw it out at them, and Saruman was right pissed about it at the time. Well, far be it from me to pre-judge the movie. For my money, Jackson’s done right by the books for the most part. We’ll see how this last turns out. It’ll be interesting to see if my wife feels anything is missing, though. She hasn’t read the books; I wonder if she’ll notice Saruman’s sudden abscence. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/9 "2003-11-13T15:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\* Plus, we already know that Saruman’s palantir is definitely in. Did it just magically appear amongst the Fellowship’s things? No, Wormtongue threw it out at them, and Saruman was right pissed about it at the time. > > \*\* Huh? What are you talking about? I know what the palantir is but why do you think they have Saruman’s in ROTK? There are several of those things you know. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/10 "2003-11-13T16:28:02Z")
[Previous thread on Saruman cut, without spoiler in title.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=222036&highlight=saruman) ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/11 "2003-11-13T19:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\*Huh? What are you talking about? I know what the palantir is but why do you think they have Saruman’s in ROTK? There are several of those things you know. \*\* Have you read the books? At the end of _Two Towers_, Saruman’s _palantir_ comes into the possession of the Fellowship, specifically Gandalf, Merry, and Pippin.[/spoiler] If the _palantir_ shown in [this](http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/9173) photo, and [this](http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/9172) one as well, isn’t Saruman’s, then they’ve got more ‘splainin’ to do… Of course, Gandalf didn’t even know about Saruman’s _palantir_ in the book until it almost hit him on the head… so who knows what to expect anymore… _sigh_ **TWDuke** , you’re right about the spoiler. I wasn’t thinking. I’ll e-mail the mods to change the thread title, if they feel it should be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/12 "2003-11-13T19:21:15Z")
[Mojo]Cuuuurrssssessssssss…[/Mojo] Damn bad coding. I should just quit posting. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/13 "2003-11-13T20:23:52Z")
Oh, don’t do that! I got a little snarky about the spoiler because the Saruman cut has me disgruntled. I’m going to miss the guy. But maybe this change _should_ be spoiled so those who care can watch the film without wondering, “Where’s Saruman?” ---
**Author:** ![Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moo_the_Magic_Cow)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/14 "2003-11-13T20:30:13Z")
DOES NO ONE REALIZE THIS IS A SPOILER? It was a freaking headline on Metafilter too… I hate the internet… ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/15 "2003-11-13T20:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > **If the _palantir_ shown in [this](http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/9173) photo, and [this](http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/9172) one as well, isn’t Saruman’s, then they’ve got more ‘splainin’ to do…** LIke he said, there’s more than 1 of those laying around Middle Earth. We know of at least 3 of them that are used in LOTR. There’s no evidence from those pictures that the palantir Pippin has isn’t Denthor’s, which would certainly be a very easy way around cutting Saruman’s scenes. **Moo the Cow** , what part of the plot is it spoiling? If someone not familiar with the books reads this title, what are they gleaning about the story? ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/16 "2003-11-13T20:39:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > **LIke he said, there’s more than 1 of those laying around Middle Earth. We know of at least 3 of them that are used in LOTR. There’s no evidence from those pictures that the palantir Pippin has isn’t Denthor’s, which would certainly be a very easy way around cutting Saruman’s scenes.** I suppose so, but I somehow doubt that Gandalf is foolish enough to leave Saruman’s lying around… but still, you’re right. Other explanations are possible. Just not very satisfactory. My point is, it’s _supposed_ to be Saruman’s palantir. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/17 "2003-11-13T20:41:07Z")
As far as this being a spoiler, better to hear it now than to watch the movie and say “Where the %$^%&\* is Saruman???” ---
**Author:** ![Vetinari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/58f4c7/32.png) [@Vetinari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vetinari)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/18 "2003-11-13T21:02:48Z")
Interesting. While I agree that starting the movie with the fall of Saruman may hurt the pacing of ROTK, I’m surprised that PJ & Company cannot find an alternate location for the scene outside the timeline (flashback, etc.), thereby creating additional dramatic tension. For instance, you could imagine starting with Gandalf/Pippen’s arrival in Gondor and flashing back to the events that served to bring them there. I bet, however, that the time constraints for this movie are more severe than the previous, especially given that major events of the second book now take place in ROTK. The ROTK preview on TTT DVD (theatrical cut) briefly mentions that Sauron thinks Pip is the Ringbearer, implying that the Saruman’s palantir is involved. I’ve tried to stay away from spoilers, but I’m interested to see how they will establish Pip’s contact with Sauron in the absence of baubles falling from the sky… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/19 "2003-11-13T21:11:08Z")
I think I’m more upset that they’re leaving out the scouring of the Shire. That’s my favorite part of the book. It shows the growth and the heroism of the hobbits. They take care of business all on their own with no help from men, elves, wizards or dwarves and it’s funny. I love that chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/20 "2003-11-13T21:27:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The ROTK preview on TTT DVD (theatrical cut) briefly mentions that Sauron thinks Pip is the Ringbearer, implying that the Saruman’s palantir is involved. I’ve tried to stay away from spoilers, but I’m interested to see how they will establish Pip’s contact with Sauron in the absence of baubles falling from the sky… Easy…here is one possibility…a complete and total guess. Gandalf arrives with Aragorn and the rest. Pippen, Merry and the Ents are already there and Pippen and Merry are running around the tower. Saruman is just gone (we assume the Ents took care of him or he ran off or something - this doesn’t seem like that much of a leap to me. Had they put in the scouring, he’d have had to run off, and by the end of the third movie, Joe Average isn’t going to remember they forgot to kill him off - or he will think they are saving his return for a sequel). Sometime before Gandalf arrives to make sure the palantir is safely stowed, Pippin (prone to this sort of thing anyway) has already found it and looked into it. No big deal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000.md?page=2)