# Saruman cut from "Return of the King" theatrical release? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000 "2003-11-13T08:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/21 "2003-11-13T21:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*Have you read the books? At the end of _Two Towers_, Saruman’s _palantir_ comes into the possession of the Fellowship, specifically Gandalf, Merry, and Pippin.[/spoiler] > > If the _palantir_ shown in [this](http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/9173) photo, and [this](http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/rotk/view/9172) one as well, isn’t Saruman’s, then they’ve got more ‘splainin’ to do… > \*\* What makes you think that I’ve seen those photos? Yes, I have read the books but only once. I didn’t memorize every detail. I do know that the films have strayed from the books to make them into movies. Darn good movies at that. The decision to take out the ‘coda’ of TTT from the beginning of ROTK is a good decision. Probably it should be put on the extended version of TTT. Doesn’t the King of Gondor have his own? IIRC, and I may not, that crazy King in ROTK has one those things. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/22 "2003-11-13T22:12:22Z")
There’s seven palantirs. Off the top of my head, the ones we know about are located at: - Minas Ithil. Captured by by Sauron. - Osgiliath. Lost in Anduin (during the Gondor civil war, I think.) - Minas Anor/Minas Tirith. Held by Denethor. - Orthanc. Held by Saruman - Emyn Beriad. Apparently unused, maybe held by Cirdan? Two were lost at sea when Arvedui’s ship sank. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/23 "2003-11-13T22:34:42Z")
I’ve seen the pictures of Pippin stealing the palantir from the sleeping Gandalf, and the scene takes place in one of the buildings of Rohan - you can see the gilt and wood columns and, I believe, Gamling sleeping in the background. So it looks like it’s Saruman’s palantir Pippin will be looking into, rather than Denethor’s. How Gandalf & Co. get ahold of it in the movie remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/24 "2003-11-13T22:39:11Z")
Hah! Found the pic. Spoilers, all. [Pippin the thief](http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/gfx/pictures_clanky/lotr_gal_velky_200310241146244040.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/25 "2003-11-13T23:10:24Z")
pug, that’s the same picture that Avalonian linked to. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/26 "2003-11-13T23:18:09Z")
THere’s two different things that need to happen: (1) The confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman (the wonderful “Won’t you come up and discuss it?” and “Your staff is broken!” and so forth) (2) The death of Saruman. I’ll be less concerned if the death of Saruman is left out, but that confrontation scene is one of the high points of the books. I’d rather see the death of the Nazgul captain left out. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/27 "2003-11-14T00:40:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by squeegee \* > \*\* Emyn Beriad. Apparently unused, maybe held by Cirdan? \*\* This stone (of Elostirion) was special in that it only looked West. Cirdan was accorded the wisest of all elves in Middle-Earth by JRRT in “Letters by JRRT” partly because after the 2nd age, he utilized this stone to communicate with the denizens of the blessed realm. The master stone still abides in the West. BTW, the two stones lost in Arvedui’s ship were the stones of Annuminas and Amon Sûl (Weathertop). As to the topic, I bet Pip shows up with the stone, and sez that when he and Merry were pottering around Isengard after the battle, Grima threw it at him. Gandalf will take it, Pip gets jealous and curious and steals it back. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/28 "2003-11-14T01:43:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*I’ll be less concerned if the death of Saruman is left out, but that confrontation scene is one of the high points of the books. I’d rather see the death of the Nazgul captain left out. \*\* Not me… but then, I’ve been waiting ever since last year to see Eowyn kick some ass. Saw a picture of that one today that just made me drool. Yum. Still, I agree that the “Your staff is broken!” moment is pretty huge. It’s something of a letdown to hear that we’re not going to see it until (at least) next November, if ever. **QtM** , I’d say your possible scenario for the discovery of the_palantir_ makes good sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Delly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Delly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/29 "2003-11-14T02:26:18Z")
I was shocked, disappointed, etc, etc. when I read this too, but thinking back over the Fellowship of the Ring, and The Two Towers, Jackson did well, and him being a major fan I think he’ll figure it out. Put it this way, everyone complained when Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel and Old Man Willow were cut from FOTR, and that turned out great, I dont think people should freak out because Sarumans being cut from the movies. Jacksons always said the movies he wanted to show are the ones on the DVD’s. Over at the [warofthering.net](http://warofthering.net), or maybe it was [theonering.net](http://theonering.net), cant remember, anyway, there is a thread about the LOTR exhibition in London that shows official props from the movies. I went the weekend of Oct 25/26, and the Palantir was there. Another person went on the 5th of November, and apparently the palantir was gone and the stand it stood on had a little sign saying ‘returned for filming use’. So maybe there still working some things out as to how Gandalf & Co. get it. Or were, because I think its done now… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/30 "2003-11-14T03:01:38Z")
I agree with Dex, the confrontation was one of the best scenes in the book. I was looking forward to seeing it on the big screen ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/31 "2003-11-14T03:02:11Z")
My opinion of this series hasn’t changed – they’re well done, and a very entertaining series of movies based on the books. It’s not the final word as far as LOTR movies. To be done right, there must be FIVE movies, one for each book in the set. Everybody’s hooked on this ‘trilogy’ crap, when the real reason the books were released in three volumes was because of commercial and medium limitations. The same reasons are limiting the current movies. There are five books (six, if you include The Hobbit), and each book can stand on it’s own as a movie, with very few changes. Someday someone will do it up right. Peter Jackson’s movies will probably delay that realization, because he got the basics so right (and I applaud him for that). This version will likely stand as the definitive version until we get holographic 3D visualizations. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/32 "2003-11-14T03:32:56Z")
Nitpick: Six books, seven if you count _The Hobbit_, and more yet if you count _The Silmarillion_. Each volume of _LotR_ contained two books. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/33 "2003-11-14T03:34:43Z")
I just found [this](http://www.theonering.net/spyreports.html) on TORN (dated link, probably expires in a couple of weeks), and am hugely reassured about how ROTK will turn out. [spoiler]Philippa Boyens says some of the best acting in the trilogy occurs during the Pelennor Fields battle. “And that’s just what the whole battle feels like,- it’s the end of all things, it’s so huge and phenomenal. So you have these great, epic movie moments, like Eowyn’s confrontation and slaying of the Witch King - who is riding a flying Fell-beast - as well as some emotional moments like the death of King Theoden.” Philippa: “We’ve got one of the great endings of all time and we’ve worked hard to make sense of how to achieve it, what it would be and what it means. So during the pick-up shooting, we added a couple of scenes which help those moments and drive the ending along. It helps people understand exactly what is happening at that point in the story. I think if we deliver on that, then it’s going to be an extraordinarily gut-wrenching experience for the audience. What happens is: ir’s not just Sam, Merry, and Pippin who are saying goodbye to Frodo but it’s the audience as well.” \ "For Jackson, the Grey Havens represents a culmination of the entire story - what it means to give and to lose and all the emotions tied to the opening line of the story: The world is changing. “The emotional story is where most of the power of ROTK really lies” Jackson says. “Every character that we know in the story, in some form or another, comes out of it different. It is an immensely affecting experience for them, and I hope for the audience as well.” Ending-Biggest SPOILER: " For the ending of ROTK…the production has created the kind of overwhelming emotional experience that undoubtedly will leave many viewers in tears." “I saw a rough cut of the sequence,” Lesnie says, “with all the bluescreens in the shots, and it was still a staggeringly moving sequence… you’re cutting back and forth between the four hobbits and Galadriel, and everyone is standing on the jetty next to the Elven boat that’s going to sail away. Bilbo’s gone and Gandalf says goodbye, and they summon Frodo, and then the other three hobbits suddenly realize Frodo is going as well…”[/spoiler] But I am bummed about having no Voice of Suruman or any conclusive ending to Chris Lee’s performance. ---
**Author:** ![Short\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Short\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Short_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/34 "2003-11-14T08:49:34Z")
I’m not really that upset that Saruman won’t be in the last film: it’s been years and years since I’ve read the books, and I wasn’t waiting for him to die or something like that. I’m just upset that Christopher Lee won’t be in it. And apparently, in Star Wars, Ep III Count Dooku is set to die in the first five minutes. What a world. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/35 "2003-11-14T16:03:29Z")
Despite being among the minority disgruntled with Jackson’s TTT, I don’t have any problem with skipping past the Gandalf-Saruman confrontation at Isengard (needed to be in TTT, really; they coulda cut out that extraneous bit with Aragorn wandering off, to make room for it), and I see the wisdom in leaving the Scouring out of the theatrical release, though I wish they’d done it for the DVD. But I still think I’m seeing this one alone; I don’t want to spoil the experience for any of my friends, who will all undoubtedly enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/36 "2003-11-14T16:36:42Z")
While I understand the pacing concerns, I think the Saruman sequence could have made a heck of a prologue to ROTK. Open up with Glandalf, Aragorn, Pippin, etc. trotting up to Orthanc to take care of unfinished business before turning to Sauron. Gandalf confronts Saruman, “your staff is broken,” Palantir flies out the window, Saruman nosedives into the pavement. Roll opening credits while the party turns towards Gondor. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/37 "2003-11-14T20:59:57Z")
My comments would be along the lines of previous poster RTFirefly. Although I do feel pretty strongly that this will be too big a loose end in ROTK. All the non-book fan moviegoers will wonder WTF happened to Saruman. And thematically, Scouring is so important that should have been filmed and put in a DVD if anything was. Ah Well. Our hopes and expectations were raised so high by the FOTR film, and then were brought so very low by the TT film. I am worried, yet hopeful, for ROTK. At least it should have a good battle and a good ending. Maybe not quite enough to get that Oscar. As I’ve said before, we’ll always have the book. (and the movie makers will have the money) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/38 "2003-11-14T21:15:06Z")
[slight hijack] I have been a bit disappointed with things that were left out or changed in the LOTR film cycle. From the first installment, I was disappointed that the Council Of Elrond, rather than the quietly conducted, but pregnant with underlying tension and dread, meeting of the novel became the shouting match we saw in the movie. And in the second installment, how _could_ they omit the moment between Aragorn and Eomer when he reveals to the latter his true identity. Sword glinting…the line “Will you aid me or thwart me”…It would have been a powerful scene. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/39 "2003-11-14T23:11:39Z")
I am going to be in a minority here but I dislike both films so far. Basically films for kids with far far too many battle and combat scenes. For me it lacks empathy with the original characterisation. And if they are to lose the Scouring of the Shire then the whole trilogy seems pointless apart from a technically impressive shoot-'erm-up. The commercial success of the trilogy will probably mean that they will not be filmed again for a long long time and so we will never get a grown up version. For fans of the books though they are probably unfilmable, going to five movies is hardly the point when, as JRT realised, the original books were themselves too short… ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000/40 "2003-11-14T23:16:53Z")
**Spectre of Pithecanthropus** , I was surprised to notice in the TTT movie, that Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas are never told Eomer’s name when they meet him. I’ve always wondered what someone who hasn’t read the books is supposed to make of this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saruman-cut-from-return-of-the-king-theatrical-release/213000.md?page=3)