# Satan & Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445 "2003-10-30T14:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jon\_pi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jon\_pi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jon_pi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/1 "2003-10-30T14:42:07Z")
I was reading emacknight’s post and it made me wonder about something… How does Satan fit into eternal damnation? As I child I was taught he was the “ruler” of Hell. Kinda always pictured him as a big-red-goat-legged-big-horned-nasty on an fiery throne. As I got older there was more about him corrupting man and turning us toward our baser instincts and away from god. From catholic mythology I know he was originally an angel, cast down from heaven by god. Was he cast into hell? If he was punished as such why would he be allowed to leave to corrupt us? Supposedly he led a revolt against heaven, literally attacking god and the other angels in an attempt for superiority. That seems like a pretty big sin compared to me telling a teacher that my dog ate my homework. But thats a lie and I’d go to hell for it (for eternity), Satan did far worse, and he’s just allowed to roam around making it tough on us humies? I mean, he’s got a really good gig all things considerred, if all he has to do with eternity is convince us humans that we should be doing what our impulses tell us to. Or even if he’s the ruler of Hell, aside from the heat it ought to be enjoyable to him to torture us humans for all of eternity, considering he went to war against heaven because he was jealous of us and our souls. (thats how I came to understand the mythology, though I have heard other explanations) In any case, seems to me that he got off easy. Anyone have an explantion for this? Enlighten me if you can. Disclaimer: I’m an athiest with interest in christian/catholic mythology. I apologize if my use of the word “mythology” is offensive to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/2 "2003-10-30T15:01:49Z")
He wasn’t cast into hell. He was cast out of heaven, presumably into this universe since he’s here. He’s not the ruler of hell. According to Revelation, in the last days he will be cast into a lake of fire for all eternity, but that isn’t now. There’s no evidence he’s ever been to hell, and there’s no evidence that his job would be torturer once he goes into the lake of fire. I’m not sure why he revolted, though I get the impression it had something to do with pride and wanting to be God. After all, if he was just jealous presumably he would have left or something. He wants to get people to go to hell with him because God loves us. After all, what better way to spit in God’s eye than to corrupt His beloved creations? Also, FTR, a lot of the info people think the Bible gives about Satan actually comes from Milton’s _Paradise Lost_ which, while awesome, isn’t Scripture. F’r’instance, I think the “jealous of humans” thing came from PL. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/3 "2003-10-30T18:22:13Z")
He’s actually the ruler of this age, and will eventually be judged. Depending on what type of eschatology you subscribe to, he is bound for 1000 years, let loose one last time, then cast forever into lasting judgment. And it’s not going to be satan who is ruling hell, so you may be trying to convince the wrong guy that your punishment is wrong. Interestingly enough, the one story that Jesus told that gave us a glimpse into hell, the rich man never said he shouldn’t be there. ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/4 "2003-10-30T18:28:45Z")
Can Satan repent for his follies? I mean what if one day he realizes what he did was wrong and asks the big guy for forgiveness? Would he/she forgive him/her? Has there ever been anything dealing with that subject? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/5 "2003-10-30T19:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s no evidence he’s ever been to hell, and there’s no evidence that his job would be torturer once he goes into the lake of fire. But there is evidence that Satan and Hell themselves exist? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/6 "2003-10-30T19:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amp \* > \*\*Can Satan repent for his follies? I mean what if one day he realizes what he did was wrong and asks the big guy for forgiveness? Would he/she forgive him/her? Has there ever been anything dealing with that subject? \*\* I read a book several years ago, entitled [_The Warhound And the World’s Pain_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0450056031/qid=1067540372/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6093330-3585536?v=glance&s=books), by Michael Moorcock. I’m not sure if Lucifer’s story (in this book) jibes with any particular accepted mythological paradigm, but it was a reasonably enjoyable read. Essentially, Lucifer’s revolt was based in a refusal to follow God’s order that he (Lucifer) be of service to humanity. Lucifer’s rationale is that he should not have to serve anyone of lower stature than God Himself. “The Devil”, of course, has been imagined and personified ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/7 "2003-10-30T19:57:46Z")
in the bible THE Satan was more of a job description then an individual being. His JOB was to tempt mortals and show them to be flawed. His metamorphosis into a specific rebelling angel was slow. And needless to say what he seems to be in some chapters conflicts with others. So pick one you like and go with it. ---
**Author:** ![jimbino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9bcb4/32.png) [@jimbino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbino)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/8 "2003-10-30T20:14:49Z")
Satan is the partner of god from time to time. Check out the Book of Job, where god, walking to and fro on the earth, makes a bar bet with satan to see if Job will still worship god after being visited with numerous miseries. So god manages to help, or at least permit, satan to kill off some cattle & sheep, kids & servants of Job, visit him with boils and a shrew of a wife. God knew all this misery was going to happen to innocent people because he is omniscient, and he allowed it to happen because he is omnipotent. I think god is a terrorist, just like the Israelis, and Ashcroft ought to send him and satan off to Guantanamo. Anyone who manages to work for one of those bastards ought to be sent there too. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/9 "2003-10-30T20:33:56Z")
**kaylasdad99** , I’ve always liked that book. I wrote a paper in a college english class once, comparing that one with Arthur C. Clarke’s Childhood’s End (I think that’s the one - it was so long ago - aliens bring enlightenment to humans, but they look like devils?) and a few other instances of the Devil in popular literature. I’ve used the Warhound to illustrate sympathetic portrayals of the devil in the Sunday School class I teach. Lots of mileage out of that book. . . 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/10 "2003-10-30T21:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amp \* > \*\*Can Satan repent for his follies? I mean what if one day he realizes what he did was wrong and asks the big guy for forgiveness? Would he/she forgive him/her? Has there ever been anything dealing with that subject? \*\* Could satan repent? No. God makes it clear in the book of Revelation that satan will rebel until the end, and he will be thrown into hell where he will remain forever. More importantly, however, God has made NO WAY for fallen angels to be forgiven. He sent Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of humankind, so that we might be saved, but he did not extend any way for fallen angels to be forgiven of their sins. They must pay for their sins themselves. It is not just a matter of “repenting” of sin…there has to be someone who will accept that repentance and someone who will PAY THE PRICE for you. This offer is made to us, but not to satan and his demons. Hebrews 2 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/11 "2003-10-30T21:47:13Z")
“That seems like a pretty big sin compared to me telling a teacher that my dog ate my homework. But that’s a lie and I’d go to hell for it (for eternity)” You’re saying that telling one lie means that you will go to hell for eternity? Have you ever heard of Purgatory? ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/12 "2003-10-30T21:59:56Z")
Dwalin, I _think_ Purgatory is only available to Catholics. Protestants have to go straight to hell. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/13 "2003-10-30T22:20:45Z")
The concept of Satan changed a great deal over the centuries in which the Bible was written. From [http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr\_sat2.htm:](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm:) > [@](#): > > Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Israel: > Traditionally, Christians have believed that the Pentateuch [the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures or Old Testament] were written by Moses under the inspiration of God circa 1450 BCE during the nation’s exodus from Egypt. The book of Daniel was seen as having been written by Daniel himself, in the 6th century CE, etc. Conservative Christians still believe this today, largely because the Bible mentions the identity of its authors in many locations, and conservatives believe the Bible to be inerrant. However, analysis of the Bible as a historical document since the late 19th century has convinced essentially all non-Evangelical Old Testament scholars that most of the Pentateuch was not written by Moses. It is rather made up of a mixture of writings and editing by three individuals or groups: in 950 BCE by “J”, 750 BCE for “E” and 539 BCE for “P”. Deuteronomy was written in the 7th century BCE, and Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE. In the following material, we will assume that the liberal interpretation is correct. > > Among those books of the Hebrew Scriptures written before 300 BCE, the term “satan” (root word “s’tn”) appears often. The word is derived from the original Hebrew verb “satan” which means “to oppose.” The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek was widely used in the early Christian church. They translated “satan” as “diaboloc” from which we derive our English term “devil” and “diabolic.” > > The word is used to refer to: > > Any person acting as an accuser or enemy. For example: 1 Samuel 29:4: The Philistines were distrustful of David, fearing that he would be a satan. (translated “adversary” or “someone who will turn against us”). > 2 Samuel 19:22: Shime-i apologizes to King David. The King rejects the apology, saying that they should not be a satan to each other (translated “adversary” or “opponent”). > 1 Kings 5:4: King Solomon is talking to Hiram, the King of Tyre. He says that now that there is neither satan nor bad luck to stop him, he can build the Temple. (translated as “adversary”, “enemy”, or “one who opposes”). > 1 Kings 11:14: God raised up Hadad the Edomite as a satan against Solomon. (translated as “adversary,” or “opponent”). > > a divine messenger sent by God as an adversary: Numbers 22:22 & 32: God appears in a dream, telling Balaam to go with the princes of Moab to meet Balak. But when Balaam sets out the next morning on his donkey, God is angry with him for some reason, and sent an angel/messenger to kill him. The donkey saw the angel and took evasive actions. The angel was invisible to Balaam, who beat the animal. The donkey asked Balaam why he had beat her three times. Balaam, who doesn’t seem to realize that a talking donkey is an unusual occurrence, replies. The angel then appears and explains that he has come as a satan to kill him. (translated as "one who opposes, “withstand,” “adversary”) > > a member of God’s inner council; a type of chief prosecutor of Heaven: 1 Chronicles 21:1: Satan, “a supernatural evil emissary,” acting on God’s behalf, has influenced David to hold a census. The census is taken, and God is angry for an unknown reason. Perhaps God does not want humans to be aware of the strength of the army. God then offers David his choice of one of three punishments: a 3 year famine, 3 months of fleeing before his enemies’ armies, or a plague throughout Israel. David selects the plague and God killed 70,000 men (and presumably a similar number of women and many tens of thousands of children). In 2 Samuel 24, the identical event is described. However, this time, the text states that God influenced David to hold the census. Even though God had incited David to enumerate the men of Israel and Judah, he was still angry that it was done and punished the Israelites with a plague. The writings in 2 Samuel are believed to be the original account; 1 Chronicles came later. It is believed that when Samuel was finally edited (circa 560 BCE), the editors thought that all supernatural actions (good and bad) came from God. When Chronicles was written over a century later, (circa 400 BCE) the author viewed God as operating indirectly through his helpers. > Job 1 and 2: Satan is described as one of the members of the court of heaven. God mentions that he is impressed at the behavior of Job, a blameless man who has lived an upright life. Satan attributes Job’s commendable behavior to his good fortune and says that Job would soon curse God if he had a string of really bad luck. God decides to conduct an experiment with Job; he instructs Satan to destroy all that Job has: kill his animals, murder his employees, and murder his innocent children. But, even after these disasters, Job still does not curse God. So God instructs Satan to up the ante by returning to earth and destroying Job’s health. Here, Satan is portrayed as a servant of God whose task it is to dutifully carry out evil deeds at God’s instruction. > Zechariah 3:1-7: Satan is again portrayed as a member of God’s council. Here he objects to the selection of Joshua as the high priest. > > There are no passages within the older parts of the Hebrew Scriptures where Satan is portrayed as an evil devil - the arch enemy of God and of humanity. At most, he is described as a henchman who carries out God’s evil instructions. There is no dualism here between two powerful supernatural entities: an all-good God and an all-evil Satan. God is portrayed as performing, directly and indirectly, both kind and evil deeds. When: > > plagues are to be sent, or > a great genocidal flood is created to kill off almost all of humanity, except for Noah and his family, or > Onan was killed because he practiced an elementary form of birth control, in violation of a cultural tradition, or > Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because its residents were abusive to the needy and to strangers, or > Lot’s wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she looked the wrong way, > > it is God who does it. In essence, the ancient writers of the early Hebrew Scriptures looked upon Jehovah as performing both good and evil deeds. A good indication of this is found in: > > Isaiah 45:6-7: > > “…I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace an create evil. I the LORD do all these things.” (KJV) > > or in Job 9:22-23: > > “…[God] destroys both the blameless and the wicked. When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent.” (i.e. laughs at the suffering of the victim) > > or in Lamentations 3:37-38: > > “Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?” > > Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Ancient Iran: > Historians have traced the foundations for the concept of Satan to the Indo-European invasion circa 2000 BCE. This migration of what are now called the Kurgan people, emigrated from what is now southern Russia into the Near East, Middle East and Europe. They were polytheists, and worshiped at least one Mother Goddess and one male God. Their religious beliefs were based on the Hindu sacred writings of the Vedas. Those who settled in western Europe became the Celtic people with their religion of Druidism and perhaps what is now called Wicca. Those Kurgans who settled in the Middle East developed religious belief along different lines. They developed the twin concepts of salvation and damnation after death. Upon dying, they believed that soul of the deceased must pass over a narrow bridge on horseback. It was called the “Bridge of the Petitioner.” Rashu, a god, judged each soul and decides who is sufficiently righteous to cross the bridge and who will fall into a type of Hell with “flames and terrible smells.” 1 Once salvation and Heaven, (and damnation and Hell) were created, then the stage was set for the next logical concept: that of a Devil. > > Zoroaster (a.k.a. Zarathrustra, Zarthosht) is believed by some to have lived circa 628 to 551 BCE. (Other estimates run from 600 to 6,000 BCE) He was a Persian prophet in what is now Iran. Like Jesus, he was recorded as having been tempted by Satan; he performed many miracles and healings and was considered a supernatural being by his followers. He introduced a major spiritual reform and created what is generally regarded as the first established monotheistic religion in the world. He rejected the worship of the established trinity of Varuna, Mithra and Indra. The new religion, to be called Zoroastrianism, involved the worship of a single male god, Ahura Mazda, the “sovereign, lawmaker, supreme judge, master of day and night, the center of nature and inventor of moral law.” He created the heavens and the earth. In short, he had all of the attributes attributed to Jehovah by the ancient Israelites, but with a different name. Zoroaster also recognized Ahura Mazda’s twin brother: Angra Manyu, (a.k.a. Ahriman) the God of Evil. The only things that he created were snakes, demons, and all of the world’s evil. 2 The old gods of the previous polytheistic religion became the demons of the new faith. Thus, Ahriman became the first Devil that the world has seen, and his assistants became the first cohort of demons under the control of a all-evil deity > > Zoroaster taught that Ahura Mazda and Ahriman would continually battle each other until the God of Evil is finally defeated. At this time, the dead will be resurrected, a Last Judgement will divide all the people that have ever lived into two groups; the bad go to Hell for all eternity; the good go to Paradise. As author Gerald. Messandé so eloquently wrote: “The framework of the three monotheisms [Judaism, Christianity, Islam] had been erected. The Devil’s birth certificate was filled out by an Iranian prophet.” > > Development of the Concept of Satan, 300 BCE to 100 CE: > The Scofield reference Bible closes the Hebrew Scriptures with the book of Malachi, 397 BCE. It opens the Christian Scriptures with Matthew’s gospel in 37 CE. This is a gap of over 4 centuries. This interval has traditionally been called the “intertestamental period.” But modern Bible scholarship has found that reality is not quite that neat: > > The Book of Daniel seems to have been written circa 165 BCE, in the middle of the intertestamental period. It recounts events 4 centuries earlier and is written as if Daniel was the author. > The Book of Esther was apparently written in the 1st or 2nd century BCE > The Gospel of Mark was the first gospel. Most Old Testament scholars date it to about 70 CE. Matthew came along later, circa 80 CE. > > Many Jewish writings have been preserved from that era. Some were collected and form the Apocrypha (Greek word meaning “hidden.”). These books appear in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) and in the Vulgate (early Latin translation of the Bible). They are found in Roman Catholic Bibles and some Protestant Bibles. Conservative Protestants do not accept the Apocrypha as inerrant or inspired by God. > > During the last three centuries before Christ’s birth, the portrayal of Satan underwent a major change. The Zoroastrian / Persian dualism concept appeared in Jewish writing: God was now looked upon as wholly good; Satan as profoundly evil. History was seen as a battle between them. No longer was Satan simply God’s prosecuting attorney, helper, or lackey. Satan, and his demons, were now humanity’s greatest enemies. > > Author G. Messandé 1 theorizes that from the middle of the 5th century BCE until 53 BC and later, the Jews were on particularly good terms with the Persians. From the latter’s religion, Zoroastrianism, the Jews picked up a number of concepts: the immortality of the soul, angels, and Satan. Of the 3 main divisions of Judaism (Essenes, Pharisees, Saducees) in the 1st century BCE, the Essenes seems to have focused the most on Satan. > > Jesus and his disciples accepted the common belief of the 1st century CE that mental illness and some physical ailments were caused by indwelling demons. “Unclean spirits” are mentioned 7 times in Mark, once in Matthew, 3 times in Luke and once in Revelation. A “dumb spirit” and a “deaf spirit” are each mentioned once in Mark. Luke talks about a “spirit of infirmity” in his gospel, and, a “spirit of divination” & an “evil spirit” in Acts. The concept of “violent possession” appears for the first time in Scripture. Demons are believed to posses individuals and cause them to mutilate themselves, to collapse, to foam at the mouth, to thrash around on the ground. Demons are seen as the cause of many physical disabilities, including blindness, spinal deformities, inability to speak. Satan figures prominently throughout the Christian Scriptures: Jesus is tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2). The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons in the name of “Beelzebub, the prince of the demons.” (Matthew 12:24) > > In the writings of Paul and the other apostles, the character and range of activities of Satan and his demons is further developed. God and Satan are seen as the two most powerful forces in the universe. The duality between an all-good God and all-evil Satan is firmly established. Examples are: > > 2 Corinthians 11:12-14: Satan is seen to be responsible for false teaching by “false apostles, deceitful workers.” > 2 Corinthians 12:7: Satan has given Paul a “thorn in the flesh” to trouble him. > 1Thessalonians 2:17-18: Satan hindered Paul’s travels > I Timothy 1:19-20: Hymenaeus and Alexander have fallen away from the faith and blasphemed. Paul had excommunicated them and “delivered them unto Satan.” Here, he is expressing the belief found also in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that once a believer is excommunicated, he will be no longer protected by God. Satan will torment him and perhaps purify him. > > The author of the Book of Revelation develops the concept of a great battle between Satan and God at the end of the world as we know it: > > Revelation 2:8-9: Satan is portrayed as the power behind the Roman Empire’s persecution of the Christians. The author apparently condemns ex-Christians who pretend that they are Jewish in order to avoid the persecution. They are referred to as the “Synagogue of Satan.” > Revelation 2:7-9: This passage is similar to Revelation 2:8-9. > Revelation 12:9: Satan, viewed as the great dragon, and his fallen angels were cast down to earth. > Revelation 20:2-3: Satan is bound and sealed into an abyss for 1000 years, so that he could no longer deceive the nations. > Revelation 20:7-8: Satan is released after 1000 years, deceives the nations, and gathers them together for war. He loses. > References: > G. Messandé, “The History of the Devil”, Newleaf, London, England, (1996) > A.S. Mercatante, “Good and Evil in Myth & Legend,” Barnes & Noble, New York, NY, (1978) > Copyright ©1998 to 2001 incl. by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance > Latest update: 2001-NOV-12 > Author: B.A. Robinson ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/14 "2003-10-30T22:25:52Z")
The concept of Satan changed a great deal over the centuries in which the Bible was written. From [http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr\_sat2.htm:](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm:) > [@](#): > > Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Israel: > Traditionally, Christians have believed that the Pentateuch [the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures or Old Testament] were written by Moses under the inspiration of God circa 1450 BCE during the nation’s exodus from Egypt. The book of Daniel was seen as having been written by Daniel himself, in the 6th century CE, etc. Conservative Christians still believe this today, largely because the Bible mentions the identity of its authors in many locations, and conservatives believe the Bible to be inerrant. However, analysis of the Bible as a historical document since the late 19th century has convinced essentially all non-Evangelical Old Testament scholars that most of the Pentateuch was not written by Moses. It is rather made up of a mixture of writings and editing by three individuals or groups: in 950 BCE by “J”, 750 BCE for “E” and 539 BCE for “P”. Deuteronomy was written in the 7th century BCE, and Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE. In the following material, we will assume that the liberal interpretation is correct. > > Among those books of the Hebrew Scriptures written before 300 BCE, the term “satan” (root word “s’tn”) appears often. The word is derived from the original Hebrew verb “satan” which means “to oppose.” The Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek was widely used in the early Christian church. They translated “satan” as “diaboloc” from which we derive our English term “devil” and “diabolic.” > > The word is used to refer to: > > Any person acting as an accuser or enemy. For example: 1 Samuel 29:4: The Philistines were distrustful of David, fearing that he would be a satan. (translated “adversary” or “someone who will turn against us”). > 2 Samuel 19:22: Shime-i apologizes to King David. The King rejects the apology, saying that they should not be a satan to each other (translated “adversary” or “opponent”). > 1 Kings 5:4: King Solomon is talking to Hiram, the King of Tyre. He says that now that there is neither satan nor bad luck to stop him, he can build the Temple. (translated as “adversary”, “enemy”, or “one who opposes”). > 1 Kings 11:14: God raised up Hadad the Edomite as a satan against Solomon. (translated as “adversary,” or “opponent”). > > a divine messenger sent by God as an adversary: Numbers 22:22 & 32: God appears in a dream, telling Balaam to go with the princes of Moab to meet Balak. But when Balaam sets out the next morning on his donkey, God is angry with him for some reason, and sent an angel/messenger to kill him. The donkey saw the angel and took evasive actions. The angel was invisible to Balaam, who beat the animal. The donkey asked Balaam why he had beat her three times. Balaam, who doesn’t seem to realize that a talking donkey is an unusual occurrence, replies. The angel then appears and explains that he has come as a satan to kill him. (translated as "one who opposes, “withstand,” “adversary”) > > a member of God’s inner council; a type of chief prosecutor of Heaven: 1 Chronicles 21:1: Satan, “a supernatural evil emissary,” acting on God’s behalf, has influenced David to hold a census. The census is taken, and God is angry for an unknown reason. Perhaps God does not want humans to be aware of the strength of the army. God then offers David his choice of one of three punishments: a 3 year famine, 3 months of fleeing before his enemies’ armies, or a plague throughout Israel. David selects the plague and God killed 70,000 men (and presumably a similar number of women and many tens of thousands of children). In 2 Samuel 24, the identical event is described. However, this time, the text states that God influenced David to hold the census. Even though God had incited David to enumerate the men of Israel and Judah, he was still angry that it was done and punished the Israelites with a plague. The writings in 2 Samuel are believed to be the original account; 1 Chronicles came later. It is believed that when Samuel was finally edited (circa 560 BCE), the editors thought that all supernatural actions (good and bad) came from God. When Chronicles was written over a century later, (circa 400 BCE) the author viewed God as operating indirectly through his helpers. > Job 1 and 2: Satan is described as one of the members of the court of heaven. God mentions that he is impressed at the behavior of Job, a blameless man who has lived an upright life. Satan attributes Job’s commendable behavior to his good fortune and says that Job would soon curse God if he had a string of really bad luck. God decides to conduct an experiment with Job; he instructs Satan to destroy all that Job has: kill his animals, murder his employees, and murder his innocent children. But, even after these disasters, Job still does not curse God. So God instructs Satan to up the ante by returning to earth and destroying Job’s health. Here, Satan is portrayed as a servant of God whose task it is to dutifully carry out evil deeds at God’s instruction. > Zechariah 3:1-7: Satan is again portrayed as a member of God’s council. Here he objects to the selection of Joshua as the high priest. > > There are no passages within the older parts of the Hebrew Scriptures where Satan is portrayed as an evil devil - the arch enemy of God and of humanity. At most, he is described as a henchman who carries out God’s evil instructions. There is no dualism here between two powerful supernatural entities: an all-good God and an all-evil Satan. God is portrayed as performing, directly and indirectly, both kind and evil deeds. When: > > plagues are to be sent, or > a great genocidal flood is created to kill off almost all of humanity, except for Noah and his family, or > Onan was killed because he practiced an elementary form of birth control, in violation of a cultural tradition, or > Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because its residents were abusive to the needy and to strangers, or > Lot’s wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she looked the wrong way, > > it is God who does it. In essence, the ancient writers of the early Hebrew Scriptures looked upon Jehovah as performing both good and evil deeds. A good indication of this is found in: > > Isaiah 45:6-7: > > “…I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace an create evil. I the LORD do all these things.” (KJV) > > or in Job 9:22-23: > > “…[God] destroys both the blameless and the wicked. When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent.” (i.e. laughs at the suffering of the victim) > > or in Lamentations 3:37-38: > > “Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?” > > Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Ancient Iran: > Historians have traced the foundations for the concept of Satan to the Indo-European invasion circa 2000 BCE. This migration of what are now called the Kurgan people, emigrated from what is now southern Russia into the Near East, Middle East and Europe. They were polytheists, and worshiped at least one Mother Goddess and one male God. Their religious beliefs were based on the Hindu sacred writings of the Vedas. Those who settled in western Europe became the Celtic people with their religion of Druidism and perhaps what is now called Wicca. Those Kurgans who settled in the Middle East developed religious belief along different lines. They developed the twin concepts of salvation and damnation after death. Upon dying, they believed that soul of the deceased must pass over a narrow bridge on horseback. It was called the “Bridge of the Petitioner.” Rashu, a god, judged each soul and decides who is sufficiently righteous to cross the bridge and who will fall into a type of Hell with “flames and terrible smells.” 1 Once salvation and Heaven, (and damnation and Hell) were created, then the stage was set for the next logical concept: that of a Devil. > > Zoroaster (a.k.a. Zarathrustra, Zarthosht) is believed by some to have lived circa 628 to 551 BCE. (Other estimates run from 600 to 6,000 BCE) He was a Persian prophet in what is now Iran. Like Jesus, he was recorded as having been tempted by Satan; he performed many miracles and healings and was considered a supernatural being by his followers. He introduced a major spiritual reform and created what is generally regarded as the first established monotheistic religion in the world. He rejected the worship of the established trinity of Varuna, Mithra and Indra. The new religion, to be called Zoroastrianism, involved the worship of a single male god, Ahura Mazda, the “sovereign, lawmaker, supreme judge, master of day and night, the center of nature and inventor of moral law.” He created the heavens and the earth. In short, he had all of the attributes attributed to Jehovah by the ancient Israelites, but with a different name. Zoroaster also recognized Ahura Mazda’s twin brother: Angra Manyu, (a.k.a. Ahriman) the God of Evil. The only things that he created were snakes, demons, and all of the world’s evil. 2 The old gods of the previous polytheistic religion became the demons of the new faith. Thus, Ahriman became the first Devil that the world has seen, and his assistants became the first cohort of demons under the control of a all-evil deity > > Zoroaster taught that Ahura Mazda and Ahriman would continually battle each other until the God of Evil is finally defeated. At this time, the dead will be resurrected, a Last Judgement will divide all the people that have ever lived into two groups; the bad go to Hell for all eternity; the good go to Paradise. As author Gerald. Messandé so eloquently wrote: “The framework of the three monotheisms [Judaism, Christianity, Islam] had been erected. The Devil’s birth certificate was filled out by an Iranian prophet.” > > Development of the Concept of Satan, 300 BCE to 100 CE: > The Scofield reference Bible closes the Hebrew Scriptures with the book of Malachi, 397 BCE. It opens the Christian Scriptures with Matthew’s gospel in 37 CE. This is a gap of over 4 centuries. This interval has traditionally been called the “intertestamental period.” But modern Bible scholarship has found that reality is not quite that neat: > > The Book of Daniel seems to have been written circa 165 BCE, in the middle of the intertestamental period. It recounts events 4 centuries earlier and is written as if Daniel was the author. > The Book of Esther was apparently written in the 1st or 2nd century BCE > The Gospel of Mark was the first gospel. Most Old Testament scholars date it to about 70 CE. Matthew came along later, circa 80 CE. > > Many Jewish writings have been preserved from that era. Some were collected and form the Apocrypha (Greek word meaning “hidden.”). These books appear in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) and in the Vulgate (early Latin translation of the Bible). They are found in Roman Catholic Bibles and some Protestant Bibles. Conservative Protestants do not accept the Apocrypha as inerrant or inspired by God. > > During the last three centuries before Christ’s birth, the portrayal of Satan underwent a major change. The Zoroastrian / Persian dualism concept appeared in Jewish writing: God was now looked upon as wholly good; Satan as profoundly evil. History was seen as a battle between them. No longer was Satan simply God’s prosecuting attorney, helper, or lackey. Satan, and his demons, were now humanity’s greatest enemies. > > Author G. Messandé 1 theorizes that from the middle of the 5th century BCE until 53 BC and later, the Jews were on particularly good terms with the Persians. From the latter’s religion, Zoroastrianism, the Jews picked up a number of concepts: the immortality of the soul, angels, and Satan. Of the 3 main divisions of Judaism (Essenes, Pharisees, Saducees) in the 1st century BCE, the Essenes seems to have focused the most on Satan. > > Jesus and his disciples accepted the common belief of the 1st century CE that mental illness and some physical ailments were caused by indwelling demons. “Unclean spirits” are mentioned 7 times in Mark, once in Matthew, 3 times in Luke and once in Revelation. A “dumb spirit” and a “deaf spirit” are each mentioned once in Mark. Luke talks about a “spirit of infirmity” in his gospel, and, a “spirit of divination” & an “evil spirit” in Acts. The concept of “violent possession” appears for the first time in Scripture. Demons are believed to posses individuals and cause them to mutilate themselves, to collapse, to foam at the mouth, to thrash around on the ground. Demons are seen as the cause of many physical disabilities, including blindness, spinal deformities, inability to speak. Satan figures prominently throughout the Christian Scriptures: Jesus is tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2). The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons in the name of “Beelzebub, the prince of the demons.” (Matthew 12:24) > > In the writings of Paul and the other apostles, the character and range of activities of Satan and his demons is further developed. God and Satan are seen as the two most powerful forces in the universe. The duality between an all-good God and all-evil Satan is firmly established. Examples are: > > 2 Corinthians 11:12-14: Satan is seen to be responsible for false teaching by “false apostles, deceitful workers.” > 2 Corinthians 12:7: Satan has given Paul a “thorn in the flesh” to trouble him. > 1Thessalonians 2:17-18: Satan hindered Paul’s travels > I Timothy 1:19-20: Hymenaeus and Alexander have fallen away from the faith and blasphemed. Paul had excommunicated them and “delivered them unto Satan.” Here, he is expressing the belief found also in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that once a believer is excommunicated, he will be no longer protected by God. Satan will torment him and perhaps purify him. > > The author of the Book of Revelation develops the concept of a great battle between Satan and God at the end of the world as we know it: > > Revelation 2:8-9: Satan is portrayed as the power behind the Roman Empire’s persecution of the Christians. The author apparently condemns ex-Christians who pretend that they are Jewish in order to avoid the persecution. They are referred to as the “Synagogue of Satan.” > Revelation 2:7-9: This passage is similar to Revelation 2:8-9. > Revelation 12:9: Satan, viewed as the great dragon, and his fallen angels were cast down to earth. > Revelation 20:2-3: Satan is bound and sealed into an abyss for 1000 years, so that he could no longer deceive the nations. > Revelation 20:7-8: Satan is released after 1000 years, deceives the nations, and gathers them together for war. He loses. > References: > G. Messandé, “The History of the Devil”, Newleaf, London, England, (1996) > A.S. Mercatante, “Good and Evil in Myth & Legend,” Barnes & Noble, New York, NY, (1978) > Copyright ©1998 to 2001 incl. by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance > Latest update: 2001-NOV-12 > Author: B.A. Robinson ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/15 "2003-10-30T22:31:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jimbino \* > **Satan is the partner of god from time to time. Check out the Book of Job, where god, walking to and fro on the earth, makes a bar bet with satan to see if Job will still worship god after being visited with numerous miseries.** It’s kinda like how I don’t agree with some of my friends on some topics so we avoid them so we can stay friends. We stay away from politics and God and Satan stay away from the nature of evil. Or like divorced people who are still fuck buddies. They can’t live with each other but it’s nice to get together now and then. I asked my wife which heresy it was that says that God rules Heaven and Satan rules the Earth. She replied, “Most of them.” ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/16 "2003-10-30T22:57:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*He’s actually the ruler of this age, and will eventually be judged. \*\* So who appointed him “ruler of this age”? And why did God willingly abdicate His rule? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/17 "2003-10-31T00:00:46Z")
Posted by **dropzone:** > [@](#): > > I asked my wife which heresy it was that says that God rules Heaven and Satan rules the Earth. She replied, “Most of them.” One in particular, actually: Gnosticism. From [http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic1.htm:](http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic1.htm:) > [@](#): > > History: > Gnosticism consisted of many syncretistic belief systems which combined elements taken from Asian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and Syrian pagan religions, from astrology, and from Judaism and Christianity. They constituted one of the three main branches of early Christianity: the other two being: The remnants of the Jewish Christian sect which was founded by Jesus’ disciples after his execution and centered in Jerusalem, and > The churches started by Paul, that were eventually to grow and develop into “mainline” Christianity by the end of the third century. > By the second century CE, many very different Christian-Gnostic sects had formed within the Roman Empire at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. Some Gnostics worked within Jewish Christian and mainline Christian groups, and greatly influenced their beliefs from within. Others formed separate communities. Still others were solitary practitioners. > > There does not seem to have been much formal organization among the Gnostics during the early centuries of the Christian movement. As mainline Christianity grew in strength and organization, Gnostic sects came under increasing pressure, oppression and persecution. They almost disappeared by the 6th century. The only group to have survived continuously from the 1st century CE into modern times is the Mandaean sect of Iraq and Iran. This group has about 15,000 members (one source says 1,500), and can trace their history continuously back to the original Gnostic movement. > > Many new emerging religions in the West have adopted some ancient Gnostic beliefs and practices. By far, the most successful of these is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – the LDS or Mormon church, centered in Salt Lake City, UT. > > The Gnostic faith is undergoing a resurgence in the 21st century, primarily in Western countries. The counter-cult movement and some other Christian ministries disseminate a great deal of misinformation about the movement. 1,2,3 > > Sources of ancient Gnostic information: > Until recently, only a few pieces of Gnostic literature were known to exist. These included Shepherd of Men, Asclepius, Codex Askewianus, Codex Brucianus, Gospel of Mary, Secret Gospel of John, Odes of Solomon and the Hymn of the Pearl. Knowledge about this movement had been inferred mainly from extensive attacks that were made on Gnosticism by Christian heresiologists (writers against heresy) of the second and early third century. These included Irenaeus (130? - 200? CE), Clement of Alexandria (145? - 213?), Tertullian (160? - 225?) and Hippolytus (170? - 236). Unfortunately, the heresy hunters appear to have been not particularly accurate or objective in their analysis of Gnosticism. > > In 1945, Mohammed Ali es\_Samman, a Muslim camel driver from El Qasr in Egypt, went with his brother to a cliff near Nag Hummadi, a village in Northern Egypt. They were digging for nitrate-rich earth that they could use for fertilizer. They came across a large clay jar buried in the ground. They were undecided whether to open it. They feared that it might contain an evil spirit; but they also suspected that it might contain gold or other material of great value. It turns out that their second guess was closer to the truth: the jar contained a library of Gnostic material of unmeasurable value. 13 volumes survive, comprising 51 different works on 1153 pages. 6 were copies of works that were already known; 6 others were duplicated within the library, and 41 were new, previously unknown works. Included were The Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Treatise on the Resurrection, Gospel of Philip, Wisdom of Jesus Christ, Revelation of James, Letter of Peter to Philip, On the Origin of the World and other writings. Of these, the Gospel of Thomas is considered the most important. It was a collection of the sayings of Jesus which were recorded very early in the Christian era. A later Gnostic author edited the Gospel. Some liberal theologians rank it equal in importance to the four Gospels of the Christian Scriptures. > > The works had originally been written in Greek during the second and third centuries CE. The Nag Hummadi copies had been translated into the Coptic language during the early 4th century CE, and apparently buried circa 365 CE. Some Gnostic texts were non-Christian; others were originally non-Christian but had Christian elements added; others were entirely Christian documents. Some recycled paper was used to reinforce the leather bindings of the books. They were found to contain dated letters and business documents from the middle of the 4th century. The books appear to have been hidden for safe-keeping during a religious purge by the mainline Christian church. > > The texts passed through the hands of a number of mysterious middlemen, and finally were consolidated and stored in the Coptic Museum of Cairo. Publication was delayed by the Suez Crisis, the Arab-Israeli war of 1967, and petty debates among scholars. The most important book, the Gospel of Thomas, was finally translated into English during the late 1960’s; the remaining books were translated during the following ten years. In many ways, this find reveals much more about the early history of Christianity than do the Dead Sea Scrolls. > > References used: > The Christian Research Institute has an interpretation of ancient Gnosticism from a conservative Christian perspective. See: [http://www.wherry.com/](http://www.wherry.com/) > The Gnostic Friends Network has lists of both pro and anti-Gnostic web sites at: [http://www.enemies.com/html/links\_n\_rings/index.html](http://www.enemies.com/html/links_n_rings/index.html) > The Gnosis Site at: [http://www.the-gnosis-site.com/](http://www.the-gnosis-site.com/) Mormons are Gnostics? Interesting . . . And from [http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm:](http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm:) > [@](#): > > Deity: The Supreme Father God or Supreme God of Truth is remote from human affairs; he is unknowable and undetectable by human senses. She/he created a series of supernatural but finite beings called Aeons. One of these was Sophia, a virgin, who in turn gave birth to an defective, inferior Creator-God, also known as the Demiurge. (Demiurge means “public craftsman” in Greek.) This lower God created the earth and its life forms. This is Jehovah, the God of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). He is viewed by Gnostics as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion and prone to genocide. The Demiurge “thinks that he is supreme. His pride and incompetence have resulted in the sorry state of the world as we know it, and in the blind and ignorant condition of most of mankind.” Actually, the Gnostic Demiurge is supposed to have been supreme on this earth from the beginning and did not rebel against the higher Supreme Being, so it is probably a mistake to equate him/it with Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/18 "2003-10-31T00:30:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*But there is evidence that Satan and Hell themselves exist? \*\* I submit to you that that question would be better asked in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/19 "2003-10-31T01:02:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*It is not just a matter of “repenting” of sin…there has to be someone who will accept that repentance and someone who will PAY THE PRICE for you. \*\* That doesn’t jibe with the whole concept of Jesus, though. Consider: Someone has to pay the price for you. The price of sin is an eternity in Hell. Thus, if someone were to pay the price of sin _for_ you, that someone would have to spend an eternity in Hell in your place. Jesus is in Heaven, not Hell. Thus Jesus has not paid the price of sin for you. If anything, it would seem that Jesus has convinced his Dad to simply absolve you of having to pay the price at all. Thus, God is perfectly willing to simply wipe the slate clean, and cancel any price that might have been required. So we see that all that is required is repenting, with God deciding that _no one_ has to pay the price for your sin. And so, I have to ask, what exactly is the point of Jesus’ crucifixion? He’s obviously not paying for your sins, or else he’d be in Hell right now. So what’s the deal? ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445/20 "2003-10-31T01:34:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amp \* > \*\*Can Satan repent for his follies? I mean what if one day he realizes what he did was wrong and asks the big guy for forgiveness? Would he/she forgive him/her? Has there ever been anything dealing with that subject? \*\* I read that some religious sects believe that Satan is free to return to Heaven as soon as he repents, and that same deal is offered to everyone who goes to Hell - so the only people who are in Hell are those who refuse to repent for their sins. I don’t know any more details than this, though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satan-hell/210445.md?page=2)