# "Satanic"- Or Harmless Fun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702 "2002-07-31T15:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/21 "2002-07-31T23:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Someone said, “A Puritan is someone who is obsessed by the dear that someone, somewhere, is having a good time.” H.L. Mencken, in _The Devil’s Dictionary_, I believe. Though I think it’s “fear,” dear. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/22 "2002-08-01T00:00:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mandielise \* > **Dungeons and Dragons, and Magic-the Gathering I really can’t say much about. I know really nothing about them.** Glad to see you’re capable of change if needed 😃 Dungeons and Dragons (from many of the fundie gripes I heard) has several points to dislike. The D&D game world is Polytheistic The use of magic and or sorcery is encouraged Use of violence is seen as an appropriate means to an end. Players sometimes resort to stealing, breaking and entering, and even assasination to achieve a goal. Religious institutions are sometimes cast in an unfavorable light within the game. etc, etc, etc… Of course if you think anything in this game reflects on real life then you would probably believe “Bree-Yark” is goblin for “We Surrender” ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/23 "2002-08-01T00:16:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > I’ve played Magic a few times with the kids I work with and it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable looking at the demons and creatures and reading about their powers and just holding those cards in my hands. For me those images have power because I believe demons are real in the spiritual world._\* Recovering geek checking in… Magic: The Gathering stopped printing any cards with reference to demonic figures, and eliminated demonic imagery, in 1995 when they altered their base card set from the 3rd ed. (aka Revised) to the 4th ed. They eliminated cards with “demonic” in the title, and a pentagram on one card. Mind you, all these cards were black-magic spells, of the different spell colors in the game, where you’d expect this. Anyways, they gutted all that to make the game more kid-friendly, and to stop the aversion of schoolteachers and cafeteria monitors who initially overreacted and banned Magic in schools (it was banned in my school briefly, though you could still play Hearts or Euchre if so inclined.) So I’d say Magic has made an earnest good faith effort to alleviate those fears. I haven’t played in 4 years, they might have changed back, but I doubt it. The game is designed to be even more kid-friendly now then it was when I played. Recovering geek checking out, heading for the bar… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/24 "2002-08-01T00:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Just saying, “Your beliefs are wrong and this stuff is harmless.” isn’t going to convince anyone, and neither is treating people who believe that as if they were idiots or fools. Part of the function of this board is to fight ignorance. Being superstitious and fearful of spirits is the absolute definition of ignorance. No grown, rational person has any business believing in the supernatural. If we continue to play codependent to the credulous, then this board might as well just give up its purpose. To my mind, belief in gods and devils is as ridiculous as believing in feng shui, astrology, palmistry, or reading tea leaves. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/25 "2002-08-01T00:56:08Z")
> [@](#): > > No grown, rational person has any business believing in the supernatural. No grown, rational person has any business telling another grown, rational person what he or she should believe. Rather, it is the place of a grown, rational person to assume that other grown, rational people make up their own grown, rational minds – as they have every right to do. To attempt to set oneself up as the arbiter of appropriate beliefs is neither adult nor rational. It is, rather, an exercise in futility and a handy way to piss people off. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/26 "2002-08-01T00:58:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > Part of the function of this board is to fight ignorance. Being superstitious and fearful of spirits is the absolute definition of ignorance. No grown, rational person has any business believing in the supernatural. If we continue to play codependent to the credulous, then this board might as well just give up its purpose. To my mind, belief in gods and devils is as ridiculous as believing in feng shui, astrology, palmistry, or reading tea leaves. \*\* You’ve got to be kidding here **gobear**. Saying that “anyone who believes in the supernatural is” What? What are all the Jewish, Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, Mormans, Hare Krishnas, Hindu’s, etc?? Obvioulsy you don’t think they are “rational”, so what then? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/27 "2002-08-01T01:05:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Squish \* > \*\* > How do you fit in, then, that Satan works for God?_\* He does? \*\* > [@](#): > > Uh-huh. So even though **dreamer** don’t believe in, say, Pan, he has the power to influence **dreamer**? \*\* No matter if I believe in _Pan_ or not, if you believe that he/she can influence others I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong since I’ve never had any interaction with Pan. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/28 "2002-08-01T01:47:42Z")
> [@](#): > > To attempt to set oneself up as the arbiter of appropriate beliefs is neither adult nor rational. It is, rather, an exercise in futility and a handy way to piss people off. I’m not setting myself up as arbiter of anything; I am giving my opinion, just as you have yours. > [@](#): > > Saying that “anyone who believes in the supernatural is” What? What are all the Jewish, Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, Mormans, Hare Krishnas, Hindu’s, etc?? Obvioulsy you don’t think they are “rational”, so what then? You’re repeating yourself; Catholics are a subset of Christians, as I suppose Mormons are–there is some disagreement on the definition of Christian involved. Buddhists don’t necessarily believe in God, although there are definitely deities in Buddhists sects. But, yeah, I think they are all dead wrong in believing in gods–unfortunately, I can’t prove it. There is no rational basis for believing in gods or devils. What you lot have is **faith** , which is inherently irrational. Belief is gods is something either you have or you don’t. It cannot be arrived at through reason or logic. The trouble is, it can’t be readily disproven either. I defy **Jodi** , **Dreamer** or any other theist to show that faith is logical, that God’s existence can be conclusively demonstrated with irrefutable evidence. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/29 "2002-08-01T01:49:07Z")
`iginally posted by dreamer \* \*\* He does? \*\* Well, as I understand the Judeo-Christian traditions, yes. If you remember Job, and if you accept the idea of God the creator of everything, then Satan is also one of God’s creations. If you believe in a divne plan then ultimately Satan does work for God. He can’t help it. I was raised catholic and spent 2 years at a catholic school before it closed. My personal experience was pretty good (except for the masses in the hall) and I was never discouraged from using my imagination. It may be different at some of the fundamental or evangelical schools. ---
**Author:** ![mandielise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@mandielise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandielise)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/30 "2002-08-01T02:00:04Z")
Let me just say one thing about the fight about supernatural beliefs. When I was born again, I found it unbelievable that anyone could ever NOT believe. The whole universe made sense within Christianity - and it was backwards without it. I thought I had figured something out that all the non-Christians hadn’t, and they could greatly benefit from what I knew - otherwise they were just ignorant morons who WANTED to sin. Then I “saw the light” a second time and realized that every other religion made just as much sense to me as Christianity did, and TO ME it seemed ignorant that any one group could say “Everyone else in the world is wrong, but we’re right!” Therefore, my advice is this: both sides of the equation see it their own way. They don’t understand the other’s point of view very well. Take what you can and learn as you grow. You’re not gonna change each others’ minds, k? I love you all! Buh bye now… ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/31 "2002-08-01T02:16:27Z")
In the interest of fighting ignorance: Mencken did not write the \* Devil’s Dictionary. \* It was Ambrose Bierce. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/32 "2002-08-01T04:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > To my mind, belief in gods and devils is as ridiculous as believing in feng shui, astrology, palmistry, or reading tea leaves. \*\* Well, and telling someone who believes in feng shui that he’s wrong and treating him like he’s ignorant or a fool isn’t going to convince him either. It reminds me of what a friend’s father said to me about debating religion. He said (and I’m quoting him from memory.) > [@](#): > > You’re not going to convince him, because you’re not arguing about facts, where you can convince someone if your facts are better than his. You’re arguing about belief, and beliefs come about from the experiences we’ve had over our entire lifetimes, so you can’t change someone’s beliefs just by pointing out facts to them. Fundimentalists, or people who believe in feng shui, or even David Icke aren’t stupid, for the most part, at least not any more or less than people who don’t, and talking to or about them as if they are stupid is just wrong and a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/33 "2002-08-01T04:40:56Z")
You know **gobear** , if I felt you really wanted to hear what I have to say without bashing it, then I might stick around and talk to you for awhile. But since I feel you just want to tell me I’m _dead wrong_ and _irrational_, then I see no point in continuing this conversation with you any further. That’s pretty sad IMO. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/34 "2002-08-01T05:32:41Z")
Personally, I continue to be interested in the explanations people give for believing in the supernatural. As someone who has never experienced the supernatural, and expects never to encounter it in my lifetime, I’m certainly curious. Please, by all means, those who disagree with **gobear** expound on this. If you need to start another thread, then by all means do so. Rereading that paragraph, there’s a chance it would be perceived as hostile. It isn’t, it’s genuine. I would be adversarial if I were to take part, but I have no intention of doing so. I’m genuinely curious about people’s beliefs in the supernatural. I have plenty of scientific speculation on why people believe that sort of thing, as I read _Skeptical Inquirer_ on a monthly basis, but I remain curious. I’ve never actually met a person who believed that Satan or various demons affected the material world, now that would be an interesting point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/35 "2002-08-01T05:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by photopat \* > **Well, as I understand the Judeo-Christian traditions, yes. If you remember Job, and if you accept the idea of God the creator of everything, then Satan is also one of God’s creations. If you believe in a divne plan then ultimately Satan does work for God. He can’t help it.** \ > [@](#): > > No matter if I believe in Pan or not, if you believe that he/she can influence others I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong since I’ve never had any interaction with Pan. 😃 I could indeed make the argument that Pan influences you, whether you believe in him or not: ever felt panicked? had a moment of panic? had a panic attack? But that’s not the point. You believe demons exist; I don’t. How can something that does not exist possibly influence me? ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/36 "2002-08-01T06:47:39Z")
I’d just like to note that not ALL Christians are fundie fanatics who believe that D&D is evil. Check out [this site](http://www.geocities.com/christian_gamers_guild/chaplain/index.html), for example. This guy goes through every single argument fundies have ever made against D&D and demolishes them all. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/37 "2002-08-01T07:01:51Z")
Dreamer, I know you felt attacked by the response to your comments, but I do have some responses and questions for you. I hope you won’t take offense. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*I agree with **Opengrave \*\* on this. If you are constantly playing a certain game or obessesed with a certain thing and you become powerless under it’s control, then that may be considered something that for you is “evil” in the sense that it is keeping you in it’s grasp. If the lyrics in songs are telling you to go out and commit crimes or hurt yourself or others, I would consider that a source of evil.** Is the source of the problem really the music, or is it the person? People have committed horrible atrocities in the name of the Bible a lot more often than in the name of musical lyrics. Should we then denounce the former simply because of how certain people respond to it? I think that it is more responsible to place the blame for actions on the individual that commits them, except in _very rare_ circumstances where the blame is shared by another individual (I am thinking of cases where people are coerced into criminal acts by charismatic individuals / cults, i.e. the Charles Manson murders). It’s simply unfair to blame rock and roll, Dungeons and Dragons, and Beavis and Butthead for the acts of irresponsible adolescents, but on the other hand to ignore religious extremists who commit crimes. Should people consider the responsibility of glorifying evil or immorality to people, especially young people? Of course. However, that is not the same as viewing Magic as evil just because they have fantasy imagery which your particular religious view of the world considers demonic or that depicts sorcery (biblically, evil), particularly when most fantasy parallels a good vs. evil worldview and a set of morality very similar to Christianity. (Look at D&D paladins and good clerics, and at Magic white [‘good’] cards, for example.) > [@](#): > > \*\*Obviously you know right from wrong so whatever is telling you to do wrong (in your mind) is evil for you. \*\* Fair enough. If you feel that certain influences are negative on your life, then you should avoid them. As long as the stress is on personal responsibility and individual choice, I don’t have a problem. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’ve played Magic a few times with the kids I work with and it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable looking at the demons and creatures and reading about their powers and just holding those cards in my hands. For me those images have power because I believe demons are real in the spiritual world. \*\* That’s fine. You don’t have to play Magic if you don’t want to. There is a certain amount of Christian imagery in a lot of fantasy. I don’t find this particularly surprising - Christian imagery is compelling because the Western world is, heavily, Christian. Tolkien, the most prominent early fantasy author, was a Christian and there are strong Christian themes (death/resurrection of Gandalf) and images (the Balrog, a very demon-like figure) in The Lord of the Rings. I just think you should keep in mind these things when you look at those cards. Do people play with them because they really want to control demons, or because the struggle between supernatural/elemental forces is a compelling basis for the game? (Heck, play White/Green decks vs Red/Black!) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/38 "2002-08-01T08:18:15Z")
Hi **grendel72** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by photopat \* > \*\* It’s always intrigued me how some people see “evil” in things that other people don’t. I think all the fundamentalists draw the line in their own way, or at least the way they’re told to by their preferred preacher. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UDS \* > \*\* Actually, people who are not fundamentalists draw the line between good and evil in one of these two ways also. > > What other ways are there? You either derive your own standards of good and evil or you adopt (critically or uncritically) standards offered to you by others. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\*Actually, some of us don’t. There is a tangible, observable morality. > That which causes harm to others is wrong, in most cases it is more like that which causes _more_ harm is wrong. Denying this, and sublimating your innate morality to what others tell you is right and wrong _can_ be dangerous. \*\* No, this demonstrates my point. You’ve adopted a standard that “that which causes harm to others is wrong”. This is either a standard which you have derived yourself, or one which someone has suggested to you and you have accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/39 "2002-08-01T10:14:15Z")
I once took my D&D books to work with me. I worked in a small (really small) town hospital, on the grave shift. My interaction with patients and the outside world was nill. My charge nurse, who observed me reading my books blew a gasket, and told me that I was not to bring those evil books back into the hospital. The other nurse on shift (I was a CNA) agreed. I gave up at that point trying to explain to folks that the rules that they believe in don’t apply to me, and that I’m ok with the “risks” I take. I think it’s an inherent need to meddle in others affairs. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702/40 "2002-08-01T14:06:09Z")
> [@](#): > > You know gobear, if I felt you really wanted to hear what I have to say without bashing it, then I might stick around and talk to you for awhile. But since I feel you just want to tell me I’m dead wrong and irrational, then I see no point in continuing this conversation with you any further. That’s pretty sad IMO. Hey, I’m an atheist; do you expect me to agree with you? In this and other threads, you have been unable to give any evidence for belief in God beyond, “Well, I just believe.” I’m reading a history of Christianity called **The Faith** , by Brian Moynahan. I’ve read every work of Christian apologetics C.S. Lewis ever wrote. I’ve read William Law, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, John Bunyan, John Stott, and Josh McDowell. I’ve read the entire Bbile, and I can quote Scripture with the best of them. I’m hip to Christian thought. How many books of atheism, free thought, or skepticism have _you_read? Ever read Bertrand Russell’s **Why I Am Not A Christian**? How about Voltaire? James Randi? Carl Sagan? Have you read any scriptures of other religions? The **Dhammapada**? **The Heart Sutra**? **The Diamond Sutra**? **The Qu’ran**? Any of D.T. Suzuki’s books on Zen Buddhism? How about **The Book of Mormon**? **The Bhaghavad-gita**? **The Upanishads**? Your defense of Christian belief seems parallel to Lucetta’s defense of her love for Proteus in **Two Gentlemen of Verona** : > [@](#): > > JULIA: Why not on Proteus, as of all the rest? > > LUCETTA: Then thus: of many good I think him best. > > JULIA: Your reason? > > LUCETTA: I have no other, but a woman’s reason; > I think him so because I think him so. {Yeah, I know it sounds sexist, but blame Shakespeare, not me.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanic-or-harmless-fun/121702.md?page=3)