# Satanists propose monument to the Dark Lord on Oklahoma State Capitol grounds **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 9, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354 "2014-01-09T13:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/41 "2014-01-10T05:32:56Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > The Church of Satan doesn’t worship satan, nor is their philosophy necessarily the direct antithesis of the 10 commandments. Though, they do contradict old chestnuts like “turn the other cheek”. The Church of Satan consisted of warmed over Rand as interpreted by the late Anton LeVey, who was as much of a Satanist as P.T. Barnum. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > For the sake of completeness, here are the [Eleven Satanic Commandments](http://www.churchofsatan.com/eleven-rules-of-earth.php): FTR, this display is sponsored by the New York based [Satanic Temple](http://www.thesatanictemple.com/), not the California based Church of Satan, which has fallen on hard times. The NY group’s ideology is grounded on a 20 something secularist who had done a college project on Satanic Ritual Abuse (IIRC) and its non-existence. Anyway, here are the principles they came up with, based roughly on the Lucifer legend. There are seven fundamental tenets. 1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason. 2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. 3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. 4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forego your own. 5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. 6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused. 7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word. For the inside scoop on Lucien Greaves, the man behind all this, see this article: [http://www.vice.com/read/unmasking-lucien-greaves-aka-doug-mesner-leader-of-the-satanic-temple](http://www.vice.com/read/unmasking-lucien-greaves-aka-doug-mesner-leader-of-the-satanic-temple) VICE: Is the Satanic Temple a satanic, or a satirical group? Doug: That is a common question. I say why can’t it be both? We are coming from a solid philosophy that we absolutely believe in and adhere to. This is Satanism, and to us it couldn’t be called anything other than Satanism. However, our metaphor of Satan is a literary construct inspired by authors such as Anatole France and Milton—a rebel angel defiant of autocratic structure and concerned with the material world. Satanism as a rejection of superstitious supernaturalism. This Satan, of course, bears no resemblance to the embodiment of all cruelty, suffering, and negativity believed in by some apocalyptic segments of Judeo-Christian culture. The word Satan has no inherent value. If one acts with compassion in the name of Satan, one has still acted with compassion. Our very presence as civic-minded socially responsible Satanists serves to satirize the ludicrous superstitious fears that the word Satan tends to evoke. Vice: Reminds me of a darker version of the Yes Men. The Satanic Temple also offers an attractive range of merchandise, including coffee mugs and bumper stickers. Shipping is only $3! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/42 "2014-01-10T06:03:58Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Kickstarter? Indi go-go? I think you could EASILY get $50k for a statue, probably surpass your goal. I know my husband will give them $1 over the internet, probably more - and I think that there are easily another 49,999 people willing to spent $1 to make this point. Yeah, Indiegogo: [Put a Satanic Monument at OK Capitol | Indiegogo](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/put-a-satanic-monument-at-ok-capitol) They’ve met their $20,000 funding goal. 8 more days to go! ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/43 "2014-01-10T21:13:47Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason. > 2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. > 3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. > 4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forego your own. > 5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. > 6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused. > 7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word. Now there is some guidance that deserves to be carved in stone on a monument outside court- and statehouses. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/44 "2014-01-12T02:45:35Z")
Lucien Greaves’s group is intrigued by the one-sided calls for violence and property damage by self identified Christians. [eg1](https://twitter.com/satanicpsalms/status/421783772539793408), [eg2](https://twitter.com/satanicpsalms/status/421778336197533696), also [curses](https://twitter.com/satanicpsalms/status/417421586149302272). The proposed monument amuses me. But is it worthy of support? The satire has strong conceptual basis, but I have difficulty seeing why the majority is obliged to permit this sort of snark on prominent public grounds. For snark is what it is. Then again, I think the 10 commandments edifice is in your face to the point of being tacky, not to mention [at variance with scripture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6%3A5). It’s a showy display of piety. Both works might be appropriate in a sculpture garden though. A zany, all-inclusive one. So to make things more concrete, does the Satanic Temple deserve a $10 donation from me (or you)? ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/45 "2014-01-12T19:59:45Z")
> [@Oly](#): > > [Stories](https://www.google.com/#q=satanists+oklahoma). > > How could the OK lawmakers who approved the 10 Commandments monument not have seen this coming? And atheists wonder why nobody likes them… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/46 "2014-01-12T20:54:32Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > And atheists wonder why nobody likes them… Because…some of us refuse to allow the dominant religion in the country to roll over us like we don’t even exist? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/47 "2014-01-12T21:16:27Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > And atheists wonder why nobody likes them… I’m a practicing Catholic and I think it hilarious, and I mean that in a good way 😃 The fact of the matter is they’re absolutely right, religion has no place in the government and you really do need to treat everyone equally. Not sure I agree with the statue and I won’t be donating but if it comes to pass I’m not gonna lose any sleep over it and I’ll probably get a good chuckle or three watching heads in Oklahoma explode and frankly I’ll be of the opinion that the Oakies got what they had commin’. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/48 "2014-01-12T21:16:35Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Also remember in the story where Satan tempted Jesus, he said that he could offer him all of the kingdoms of the world. And Satan would never lie. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/49 "2014-01-12T21:47:47Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > And atheists wonder why nobody likes them… To be fair, we perfectly understand why nobody likes us - because we refuse to let Christians enforce their beliefs, especially the backwards, harmful beliefs, on others. There’s no real wondering to it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/50 "2014-01-12T21:59:46Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > And Satan would never lie. Jesus doesn’t deny that Satan has power over the kingdoms of the world - Jesus’s response is just “Get away, Satan! It is written: ‘The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve.’” ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/51 "2014-01-13T00:15:29Z")
If they comply with the law, it’s their money. There have to be clear rules, however as to what a religion is so the idea is. If there is one person who, 100% honestly, believes in the giant, child-raping penis and wants to set up a monument to that, do we allow it? Are all manners of religious expression equally “protectable”? But, as I said, it’s their money and if, legal, no sweat. The appropriate Christian resposne is endless flickr/FB pics mocking the fuck out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/52 "2014-01-13T00:18:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If there is one person who, 100% honestly, believes in the giant, child-raping penis and wants to set up a monument to that, do we allow it? Are all manners of religious expression equally “protectable”? No, because that would be pornographic and an expression of an illegal act. So back to the drawing board until you come up with something more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/53 "2014-01-13T00:22:10Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, because that would be pornographic and an expression of an illegal act. So back to the drawing board until you come up with something more reasonable. That’s exactly my point. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/54 "2014-01-13T00:27:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, because that would be pornographic and an expression of an illegal act. So back to the drawing board until you come up with something more reasonable. Crucifying people is illegal too. Doesn’t seem to put a dent in the crucifix market. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/55 "2014-01-13T00:42:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The appropriate Christian resposne is endless flickr/FB pics mocking the fuck out of it. Actually I think the appropriate Christian response is to really live the idea of _Love Your Neighbor as you Love Yourself_ without the qualification that it only applies to other Christians, and loudly say “This is why elevating one group over any other is a really bad idea in government policy.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/56 "2014-01-13T01:18:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If they comply with the law, it’s their money. > There have to be clear rules, however as to what a religion is so the idea is. If there is one person who, 100% honestly, believes in the giant, child-raping penis and wants to set up a monument to that, do we allow it? Are all manners of religious expression equally “protectable”? > > But, as I said, it’s their money and if, legal, no sweat. The appropriate Christian resposne is endless flickr/FB pics mocking the fuck out of it. ## You probably get this but the issue isn’t putting this statue up in private land. It’s the Oklahoma State Capitol. Methinks the authorities have the right to filter on the basis of taste and heck arbitrary judgment. The problem is that the 10 Commandments monument places religious belief in a setting where it really doesn’t belong. It’s almost as silly as the Baphomet statue. In practice, [donations](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/put-a-satanic-monument-at-ok-capitol) (5 days left!) will go towards legal expenses, as there’s no way Oklahoma will allow this on State Capital grounds and the Satanic Temple would be satisfied if the 10 Commandments unpaid advertisement was removed. Of course, most of the lawyers would presumably work _pro bono_, or for the ACLU. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/57 "2014-01-13T04:01:58Z")
Last month, the Satanic Temple petitioned Florida’s Department of Management Services to put their holiday display in the Florida Capitol Rotunda, alongside a nativity scene, a Festivus Pole and a Flying Spaghetti Monster. The Temple’s scene depicted Lucifer’s fall from heaven alongside Isaiah 14:12 and underneath a cheery banner which said, “Happy Holidays from the Satanic Temple”. The DMS turned their application down, calling it “Grossly offensive”. Lucien Greaves was apparently bemused: “Please inform the Department that it is not our intention to offend… Our proposed structure does not present any images that would be inappropriate for people of any age. Like the Nativity scene, it presents an image from a Biblical story, which is shared with other religious traditions besides our own. In addition, a positive sentiment of ‘Happy Holidays’ is displayed.” Greaves was open to reasonable compromise though, if only the DMS would point out which parts of the work were offensive. That sounds like a fair request to me. I myself am not overly familiar with local community standards in Florida, but perhaps a display that didn’t show a humanoid subjected to 2 fatal punishments (defenestration and burning) would be more consistent with the holiday spirit. [http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/2013/12/satanic\_temple\_rejected\_by\_flo.php](http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/2013/12/satanic_temple_rejected_by_flo.php) > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Of course, most of the lawyers would presumably work _pro bono_, or for the ACLU. CLARIFICATION: The ACLU does not support the Satanic Temple’s display in Oklahoma, because they oppose any sort of religious display that implies official government endorsement of the same. MfM regrets the error. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/58 "2014-01-13T12:26:16Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > And atheists wonder why nobody likes them… Nah, those are Satanists, not atheists. Totally different. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/59 "2014-01-13T16:57:41Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > But, as I said, it’s their money and if, legal, no sweat. The appropriate Christian resposne is endless flickr/FB pics mocking the fuck out of it. Is the _appropriate_ non-Christian response to the displaying of Christian icons on public property endless flickr/FB pics mocking the fuck out of it? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354/60 "2014-01-13T18:24:57Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Nah, those are Satanists, not atheists. Totally different. Atheists… fuck me. I mean, say what you will about the tenets of diabolism, at least it’s a mythos! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/satanists-propose-monument-to-the-dark-lord-on-oklahoma-state-capitol-grounds/678354.md?page=4)