# SATs--racially/culturally biased? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2002, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181 "2002-06-03T16:23:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neptune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@Neptune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neptune)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/21 "2002-06-05T06:12:34Z")
Here’s my **favorite example of cultural bias** in tests. These researchers were teaching sign language to a gorilla. They hypothesized that the gorilla’s IQ was similar to that of a human child, so they administered a multiple-choice IQ test to the gorilla designed for children. One question was: which of these items is good to eat. The gorilla selected “flowers”. According to the rules they had to mark it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/22 "2002-06-05T12:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neptune \* > \*\*Here’s my **favorite example of cultural bias** in tests. These researchers were teaching sign language to a gorilla. They hypothesized that the gorilla’s IQ was similar to that of a human child, so they administered a multiple-choice IQ test to the gorilla designed for children. One question was: which of these items is good to eat. The gorilla selected “flowers”. According to the rules they had to mark it wrong. \*\* So “they” gave a human child’s IQ test to a gorilla and scored it precisely as they would for a child? This is a perfect example of our narrow, biased human-centric view of what defines “intelligence”. It also sounds suspiciously like a made up fact I would very hard to believe unless this is also a story of the world’s stupidest grad students trying to make some silly point about speciest relativism. Do you have a direct cite of _any_ kind for this purported happenstance? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/23 "2002-06-05T13:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > A student from a country where the schools place a lot of emphasis on rote memorization may have a tough time with a test that emphasizes problem-solving, and vice versa. Unfortunately, if you read Jonothan Kozel’s _Savage Inequalities_, you would see that you don’t have to go to another country. There are remarkable differences in the way inner-city and suburban kids are educated. One tends to place rigid emphasis on rote memorization, whereas the other allows for more independent thought and exploration. I’m not saying this explains all disparities on the SAT, but I’m sure differences in the way different demographics are educated play a huge part. > [@](#): > > Not too long ago, A Famous Tech School in the southeast did a tracking study of its “special admit” students. If this is the Famous Tech School that I’m familiar with, I can vouch for **ftg** because I remember reading something similar a few years ago. But even if I hadn’t, I don’t think what **ftg** said is wrong. Actually, it supports what the College Board has found through its own [study](http://www.collegeboard.com/research/html/rs01.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/24 "2002-06-05T13:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\* > > Unfortunately, if you read Jonothan Kozel’s _Savage Inequalities_, you would see that you don’t have to go to another country. There are remarkable differences in the way inner-city and suburban kids are educated. One tends to place rigid emphasis on rote memorization, whereas the other allows for more independent thought and exploration. I’m not saying this explains all disparities on the SAT, but I’m sure differences in the way different demographics are educated play a huge part. > > If this is the Famous Tech School that I’m familiar with, I can vouch for **ftg** because I remember reading something similar a few years ago. > > But even if I hadn’t, I don’t think what **ftg** said is wrong. Actually, it supports what the College Board has found through its own [study](http://www.collegeboard.com/research/html/rs01.pdf). \*\* I don’t think anyone is questioning ftg’s claims about minority students doing well (or having the capacity to do so) in a particular academic environment. It’s the claim that the University in question (or any University) would find it advisable or necessary to quash these results in a conspiracy of silence, because it showed their current institutional admissions model was flawed. Most schools would grab results like these and run with them to obtain favorable media and academic attention and potential grant monies. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/25 "2002-06-05T15:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone is questioning ftg’s claims about minority students doing well (or having the capacity to do so) in a particular academic environment. **bnorton** and **Opus1** might disagree with you, **astro**. > [@](#): > > Most schools would grab results like these and run with them to obtain favorable media and academic attention and potential grant monies. Why do you think so many schools have made SAT scores optional on their applications? I also think you’re giving schools too much credit. It doesn’t matter what certain studies have shown; there is a perception out there that minorities–particularly black and Hispanic students–are remedial learners (at best). I’ve overheard people denigrating certain schools just because they have more than a minuscule percentage of minority enrollment (I actually heard a white guy say he didn’t want to go to a satellite campus here in NJ because it had a lot of _brothers_…and yet this guy wouldn’t know an atom from an apple). It’s sad but true: the more whites and Asians are enrolled at your school, the more prestigious that school will _appear_. So if you’re working under this assumption (and I believe most people do–whether they are conscious of it or not), why would you try to bring in more minority students, even if they are “good”? There’s an advantage in keeping your minority student body low. If you have a few tokens, you can pass yourself off as diverse. And if that’s all they are–just a few tokens–then you don’t have to worry about damaging your reputation. Finally, people still hold up the SAT as the end-all, be-all to whether or not you’re qualified for college. If a student with a low SAT fares well in college, it’s chalked up to a fluke, not to a direct challenge of the validity of the exam. So if a college increases its “special admins”, it’s going to hurt a lot of feelings for those students who are not special admins and feel that a double-standard was applied. We’re already seeing those hurt feelings in the form of suits against AA policies. I’m guessing most universities don’t want to be bothered. ---
**Author:** ![Opengrave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/919ad9/32.png) [@Opengrave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opengrave)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/26 "2002-06-05T15:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by padabe \* > \*\*I read somewhere (maybe here, although I can’t find it anywhere) that there was an SAT question that assumed familiarity with tea cups and saucers (the one-to-one relationship or something), and it was derided as being biased. Supposedly minority kids wouldn’t know this. I have no idea how old it was, but it interested me because it was the only concrete complaint I’d heard. \*\* I’m not really trying to get into the GQ here but the above example and some of the thoughts in this thread all deal with _economic_ bias. You can bet than an upper class black student would know what a tea cup is. When this is dicsussed in terms of inner city vs. suburbs the suburbs will almost always have higher scores beacuse I’m guessing the suburbanites have more resources for things like test guides, preparation, etc… Does anyone have anything to offer about suburbanite minority test scores vs. suburbanite white test scores and inner city minority test scores vs. inner city white test scores? I also remember having the questions that were very odd obviously trying to remove cultural bias. “All Zig-Zogs and Flip-Flaps are Woogie-Woogies but not all Woogie-Woogies are Zig-Zogs or Flip-Flaps, this is an example of?” sorts of questions. ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/27 "2002-06-05T16:49:42Z")
I managed to find one more example of a questionable questions "STRAWBERRY:RED (A) peach:ripe (B) leather:brown © grass:green (D) orange:round (E) lemon:yellow This is a sample analogy from the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). For most, the answer seems straightforward, (E) lemon:yellow, but this question has been “flagged” and dropped from the test because of its racial bias against individuals of Hispanic ethnicity. These individuals, as proposed by one SAT panel member, may or may not be familiar with yellow lemons, but green lemons, thereby making this question unfair to a particular group (ETS, 1997)." from [http://tc.unl.edu/jaevans/curr330\_testingbias.html](http://tc.unl.edu/jaevans/curr330_testingbias.html) ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/28 "2002-06-05T17:26:55Z")
Off to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/29 "2002-06-05T20:31:54Z")
If I remember correctly, there was a study done that shows that cultural bias really does affect the results. That is, women are better able to answer a math questions about dolls better than they could answer the same question about star wars figurines. And vice-versa, with boys. It’s probably not a huge shock to find that our brains can process ideas about familiar objects better than ideas about unfamiliar ones. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/30 "2002-06-05T20:49:54Z")
Are SAT exams more culturally biased than personal interviews and evaluations? After all, if colleges give less weight to SAT exams, then they have to give more weight somewhere else. If you take the POV that honkies tend to be closet racists, then it follows that SAT exams ought be less biased than personal interviews, because they’re anonymous. (I chose an actuarial career partly because advancement depended on anonymous tests, which helped insulate against anti-semitism.) IMHO people complain about SAT exams because African Americans don’t do as well on average. Cultural bias is an appealing excuse, but the real problem is the condition of inner-city education. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/31 "2002-06-05T21:12:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ftg \* > I’d really like to know on what basis such statements are made? They disagree completely with my direct knowledge. Even if the story you tell is true, how does that contradict the claim that SAT scores predict sucess in college? > [@](#): > > They promptly hid the study due to its political impliciations. I, too, find this story hard to believe. For one thing, this sounds like the sort of study liberals would conduct, and would therefore not want to “hide”. For another, there **are** many groups that would like to find the results you mention. Where are the studies from them? > [@](#): > > Their admission system was obviously discriminatory. How so? Fretful Porcupine: > [@](#): > > Or, to use a hypothetical example more specific to the SAT: When parents from culture X read stories to their children, they simply read the words on the page with little elaboration. Parents from culture Y, on the other hand, pause to ask the children questions about what’s going on in the story and what they think will happen next. How is that cultural bias? What you’re presenting is a situation in which people from a certain culture **really are** better at some skills than others. A test on which they do better would therefore be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/32 "2002-06-05T21:58:41Z")
quote: ## When combined with high school grades, it is a better predictor of college grades than high school grades alone. When I taught college and we were accepting students/giving out scholarships, we put very,very little weight on high school grades. It was our experience that there was little correlation between high school grades and college success but a huge correlation between SAT and college success. We even had some statistics from studies to verify this (to defend our actions) but cannot remember these studies for a cite. (it was 10+ years ago!) ---
**Author:** ![zen101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c68b51/32.png) [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/33 "2002-06-05T22:50:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ftg \* > \*\* > > Not too long ago, A Famous Tech School in the southeast did a tracking study of its “special admit” students. Minorities who hadn’t done well on the SATs. They did better than average than the rest of the frosh population. > > \*\* If you are referring to a school that is in Downtown Atlanta across the street from the world’s largest fast food resturant then I know a little bit about this test group. If you mean another school, then Georgia Tech did the same thing and the results were as you indicated. One thing you did not mention is that these “special admissions” cases were extensively screened and interviewed prior to admittance and were also given tutoring and guiodance in noted problem areas (not special tutoring unavailable to other students, just that they were given more encouragement to take advantage of learning success centers on campus). Figure in that these students were the few selected from the many applicants who impressed the selection comitte the most then it is of little surprise that they did better than the average student at the same school, especially as they made an effort to improve in student success centers because they knew before hand they needed to work harded and that this was a lucky shot to even get into this school. \*\* > [@](#): > > They promptly hid the study due to its political impliciations. > \*\* If you are talking about Georgia Tech then you are spouting the kind of conspiracy nonsense that usually I’d expect from my fundamentalist Cgristian relatives. GT asked the state for additional funding for inner city or “urban” scholarship development and got it. It was an academic coup for the program and the school and the political benefits of a southern school researching how to assist minority students was a boon. \*\* > [@](#): > > they should be accepting far _more_ “special admits”. Their admission system was obviously discriminatory. \*\* This is nice and all, but the process to determine if a student is worthy of this special status is a lot more intensive than the typical admissions essay or SAT standard (or transcript basis for transferring students). It is probably a better idea to work toward making all K-12 education systems work properly to prepare those with the ability and inclination for college. Also consider than there is in most states an excellent community college program which does make it much easier to get into major universities despite SAT scores by booting your acedemic transcript as well as learning how to compete in a college environment. \*\* > [@](#): > > (But showhow people think this is “reverse bias”. Nevermind the fact that how people actually do in college is the best measure.) I used to be on the faculty of said school btw, which is how I know about this. \*\* You are right. There is no such thing as reverse bias, there is just bias. Revers bias means unbiased which is what we all say we want. People who say reverse bias are morons. Still, with limited seating, you do need some sort of standars as long as we have more money going to prisons than education. I was considering going pre-med with a dual enrollement at PSU and OHSU but there is a ridiculous waiting list at OHSU and that is with acedemic standards. Thankfully I audited an autopsy corse and discovered that I’m nauseus and am therefore more suited to psychology than phychiatry and can therefore get my Masters w/o vomiting my way through school. And as a bonus I don’t have to lose a year of my life to MCAT preparations. \*\* > [@](#): > > I have taught many minorities (and women, which in my field are minorities) over the years. I got to know many over 4 years and 4+ classes. I know some really great hard working students yet somehow their test scores on the GRE were pathetic. > \*\* I see the same thing in school all the time. What subject do you teach and is it possible or likely that it is a lack of preparation which can be blamed on the elementary school system? \*\* > [@](#): > > I have served on the graduate admissions commitees at 2 universities. All the members knew from first hand experience that you just have to ignore minorities’ GRE scores. Look at grades and letters of rec. We could have easily accepted far more minorities but they just weren’t applying in large numbers. Again, how they actually did in grad school proved us right. > \*\* I think this just goes to prove than those who make it to grad school have learned how to work harder. Think Forrest Gump working all those years to overcome his leg braces, then he is sans-brace and has developed greater than averave strenght from learning to cope. Minority students who make it usually tend to make it big because they have the determination to do it that kids who didn’t have to work as hard to get there often lack. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/34 "2002-06-06T01:06:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scm1001 \* > \*\*I managed to find one more example of a questionable questions > > "STRAWBERRY:RED > > (A) peach:ripe (B) leather:brown © grass:green (D) orange:round (E) lemon:yellow > > This is a sample analogy from the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). For most, the answer seems straightforward, (E) lemon:yellow, but this question has been “flagged” and dropped from the test because of its racial bias against individuals of Hispanic ethnicity. These individuals, as proposed by one SAT panel member, may or may not be familiar with yellow lemons, but green lemons, thereby making this question unfair to a particular group (ETS, 1997)." from [http://tc.unl.edu/jaevans/curr330\_testingbias.html](http://tc.unl.edu/jaevans/curr330_testingbias.html) \*\* Am I going to be the only one to ask about these “green lemons”? I was honestly curious so I did a googe search for “green lemons” and one of the only good references that showed up was to this very article saying that it is a ridiculous example and there is no such thing as a ripe green lemon. [http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxviii/1999.10.29/opinion/p08sats.html](http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxviii/1999.10.29/opinion/p08sats.html) I have been to Mexico and Central America and I too have never seen these green lemons of which they speak. Could they be thinking of _limes_. If that is it then I am throwing my hands up in the air right now because you just cannot fight that kind of logic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/35 "2002-06-06T02:26:31Z")
I’ve seen green lemons. They weren’t ripe, though. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/36 "2002-06-06T06:27:36Z")
There is only one word for lemon and lime in Spanish (_limón_) and lemons are rare in Latin America. If you learn that the word in English for lemon is _limón_, you’re going to be confused when someone tells you a lemon is yellow, when a _limón_ is green. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/37 "2002-06-06T14:50:48Z")
Um, actually lime is _la cal_ in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/38 "2002-06-06T15:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > \*\*Um, actually lime is _la cal_ in Spanish. \*\* Are you sure that’s lime-the-fruit and not lime-the-chemical-substance? To answer **The Ryan’s** question about whether my example would really constitute cultural bias, I agree that there’s room for argument. However, the SAT tests a fairly narrow and limited range of the many skills that may help students succeed in college, and the selection of which skills those are is somewhat arbitrary. I’m inclined to say it _would_ be a biased test if the testmakers relied heavily on a particular type of problem which one ethnic group was consistently better prepared to solve; the testmakers, after all, have the option of substituting a different type of problem where the discrepancies are not so great. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/39 "2002-06-06T16:35:50Z")
Undoubtedly there are some regional differences. My dictionary has the word _tilo_ for lime, but I’ve only heard them called _limones_. In any case, you’re not going to get anything asking for _cales_ in the market. Aren’t IQ tests actually pretty similar to some parts of the SAT? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181/40 "2002-06-06T19:09:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Aren’t IQ tests actually pretty similar to some parts of the SAT? Yes. Some of the math questions especially are almost exactly what you would find on an IQ test. In fact it is only recently that there is more emphasis on what you actually know. The SAT II tests require that you have taken more advanced classes. Saying that the SAT only tests what you know is not accurate. I didn’t miss a single question on the SAT, but it wasn’t because I knew more than anyone else. On many of the math problems I used methods that I had never been taught, but that I knew were logical. On many of the verbal questions I made guesses based on knowing what some of the words meant. What the SAT really measures is how well you can take tests. This is useful in predicting college success, because many college classes have tests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sats-racially-culturally-biased/112181.md?page=3)