# Saudi Arabia or North Korea: where would you rather live? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378 "2010-07-03T01:41:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/21 "2010-07-03T06:54:38Z")
I picked Saudi Arabia, just because, despite the censoring and firewall, at least I’d have some contact with the outside world. Honestly, the idea of being as isolated as North Koreans are is even scarier to me than the idea of having little to no rights. Plus, I could expect to be able to _leave_ Saudi Arabia on vacation or something. I think technically I’m not supposed to be allowed into Saudi Arabia at all because I have been to Israel, but I don’t have any Israeli stamps on my current passport, so I don’t think anyone would know. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/22 "2010-07-03T07:25:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes. Seriously Dopers have extremely warped views about many things, Islam and Muslim countries must be top of the list. > > I ain’t no fan of the Kingdom, but please base your critisims of them on facts not on conjectures and surmises. I take it that the [wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia) on the subject is wildly inaccurate then? > [@](#): > > Women are not allowed unaccompanied in the presence of non-mahram men. > > Sex segregation is strictly enforced. Khamisa Mohammad Sawadi, a 75-year old woman who was not a citizen was sentenced to 40 lashes, imprisonment, and deportation for allowing a man to deliver bread to her directly > [@](#): > > Most restaurants in Saudi Arabia have “family” and “male-only” sections. The family section is the place where women must sit accompanied by their husbands or fathers. All family restaurants in Saudi Arabia bar entrance to women who come without their husbands or close male relatives. > [@](#): > > Saudi sharia (Islamic law) does not ban women from employment. However, according to the rulings, employment is restricted. These restrcitions include: > [@](#): > > The work should be in a place that is only for women, and there should be no interaction or mixing with non-mahram men such as she works in teaching girls, whether in administration or technical support, or she works as a nurse in a women’s hospital. There are also women who work at home as seamstress sewing clothes for other women. Women are also allowed to work as journalists but they should work from home. Working in a mixed workplace is strictly prohibited > [@](#): > > It is not considered permissible for women to be appointed as judges, and positions of high public office are also reserved for men. > [@](#): > > Women’s freedom of movement is strongly limited in Saudi Arabia. They are not supposed to leave their houses or their local neighbourhood without the permission of their male guardian, and company of a mahram (close male relative). > [@](#): > > In general, women are not allowed to drive, although it is tolerated in rural areas. > [@](#): > > It is also forbidden for women to ride bicycles and motorbikes. I’m only half way through that article too, but I think that’s about enough. North Korea here I come. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/23 "2010-07-03T07:40:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes. Seriously Dopers have extremely warped views about many things, Islam and Muslim countries must be top of the list. > > I ain’t no fan of the Kingdom, but please base your critisims of them on facts not on conjectures and surmises. Dude, I just asked you for some facts. Don’t just slam me, educate me. Fight the ignorance here. I’ve spent the best years of my life living in a Muslim area and intend to return, so it’s not like I’m some knee-jerk anti-Islam person. But everything I read about Saudi Arabia indicates that it’s a very restrictive place for women. You obviously feel passionately about this, so share what you know with the rest of us. What is daily life for a single female not in an ex-pat compound like? What, if any, restrictions would she face? Here is the Wikipedia page: [Women's rights in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia) > [@](#): > > All females must have a male guardian, typicallly a father or husband. The guardian has duties to, and rights over, his woman in many aspects of civic life. Women need their guardian’s permission for: marriage and divorce; travel, if under 45; education; employment; opening a bank account; elective surgery, particularly when sexual in nature… > > Women are not allowed unaccompanied in the presence of non-mahram men. > Sex segregation is strictly enforced. Khamisa Mohammad Sawadi, a 75-year old woman who was not a citizen was sentenced to 40 lashes, imprisonment, and deportation for allowing a man to deliver bread to her directly… > > Most restaurants in Saudi Arabia have “family” and “male-only” sections. The family section is the place where women must sit accompanied by their husbands or fathers. All family restaurants in Saudi Arabia bar entrance to women who come without their husbands or close male relatives… > > Women in Saudi Arabia make up just 5% of the workforce, which is the lowest proportion in the world… > > Women’s freedom of movement is strongly limited in Saudi Arabia. They are not supposed to leave their houses or their local neighbourhood without the permission of their male guardian, and company of a mahram (close male relative) .. > > n general, women are not allowed to drive, although it is tolerated in rural areas…In Saudi Arabia, it is forbidden for women to be alone in a car with a non-mahram man, as it is considered khalwa, a religious and cultural crime. > > Women are not allowed to ride inter-city buses and trains unless they are accompanied by a close male relative… > > In court, the testimony of one man equals that of two women. Female parties to court proceedings generally must deputize male relatives to speak on their behalf… How much of that is true and what impact would that have on a single woman’s life? These all seem like huge problems for me. Is Wikipedia lying, or is it just not as bad as it sounds on paper, or what? Remember, I personally would be in Saudi Arabia without a male relative. Everything I read indicates that I would not even be allowed to grab a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I can’t drive, but I can’t go out with just a driver. How does it work? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/24 "2010-07-03T07:41:20Z")
Ha! Got beat to it! ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/25 "2010-07-03T08:00:23Z")
Oh, and there’s one more specially for **sven** > [@](#): > > In 2005, the country’s religious authority banned the practice of forced marriage. However, practically, females are not involved in making decisions surrounding their own marriages. The marriage contract is officially between the husband-to-be and the father of the bride. I think under the rules of the game, since we’re apparently being provided with the necessities of life, and a male guardian is a legal requirement, women choosing Saudi would have to be able to bring their husbands if applicable, dads if not. _thinks for two seconds_ nope, still North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/26 "2010-07-03T08:51:16Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > (snip) > > But I’m a single female and I would not be living in an expat compound. And I am NOT a homebody. I need public life, sunshine, community and nature. > > Could I still go for a walk on a breezy evening, smiling at the kids playing and chatting it up with the local shopkeepers? Could I sit out on my front step watching the world go by? Could I go on long bus rides, not knowing where I’m going, and explore new neighborhoods? Could I choose to walk to work instead of taking a car when the weather is good? > > Would I be able to even go to restaurants and parks at all, given that I don’t have a male guardian at my disposal? Could I do my own shopping or would I have to send out for it? If I’m feeling a bit stir-crazy in the house, what would my options be? How does the guardian thing even work if you don’t have any male relatives in the country? > > Could I continue my career? What would my career options be? I’m sick of being a teacher. What else could I do? > > I’m in my twenties and would obviously like to spend time with eligible young men. Would that be possible? Are there any ways for young people to get to know each other in mixed-sex groups? Could I ever go on a date- even if it’s just a chaste walk down a public street? Is there any chance of any sort of nightlife? > > My impression is that life for a single female not in an expat compound would be pretty restricted. I would find few opportunities to get out of the house and would have very little to fill up my time with. In North Korea I could have a career and walk around the block now and then. Maybe I could even sneak a few shots of homemade liquor with some cute guy while we all watch the community TV during our nightly hour of electricity. Not an awesome existence, but better than being cooped up in the house all day. I’m not entirely sure why, but I find this post to be subtly awesome. If ya ever **do** decide to move and need a male guardian… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/27 "2010-07-03T11:05:31Z")
The only reason I’d pick Saudi Arabia is because I can’t tolerate cold. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/28 "2010-07-03T11:44:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Dude, I just asked you for some facts. Don’t just slam me, educate me. Fight the ignorance here. I’ve spent the best years of my life living in a Muslim area and intend to return, so it’s not like I’m some knee-jerk anti-Islam person. But everything I read about Saudi Arabia indicates that it’s a very restrictive place for women. You obviously feel passionately about this, so share what you know with the rest of us. What is daily life for a single female not in an ex-pat compound like? What, if any, restrictions would she face? > > Here is the Wikipedia page: [Women's rights in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia) > > How much of that is true and what impact would that have on a single woman’s life? These all seem like huge problems for me. Is Wikipedia lying, or is it just not as bad as it sounds on paper, or what? > > Remember, I personally would be in Saudi Arabia without a male relative. Everything I read indicates that I would not even be allowed to grab a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I can’t drive, but I can’t go out with just a driver. How does it work? As I said that I am no fan of S Arabia. But unlike Kyla and you and probably most people on this board I actually lived there for nearly two years. And enjoyed every moment of it. My father was gone most of the time, he was in the army (posted as an instructor) and thus it was just me and my mother and and we did not live in an expat compound and we went shopping, went to parks (though not a good idea in the middle of summer), went on a bus, in Jeddah went to the beach, and all sans a “mehram”, I did not count, I was about 8. I am amazed at the vicereal hatred of Saudis on this board, if you said this about any other country you would get a warning, but seems kosher for S Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/29 "2010-07-03T11:49:15Z")
I think that all those rules wouldn’t apply to a white western non-muslim woman. At least I remember watching a TV programme where one of those travelled through Saudi (Kate Humble) and she was surprised that she could just wear normal clothes and do what she wanted without any hassle. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/30 "2010-07-03T11:54:41Z")
I think I’ll go with North Korea. What you’ve never had or seen, you cannot miss. In Saudi Arabia you’d get glimpses of an “outside world”, but you’d never be a part of it. Sorry, I rushed the OP. If I’ve not been born there, I’ll go with SA as the lesser of 2 shitholes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/31 "2010-07-03T12:27:16Z")
Saudi Arabia, hands down. Saudi has an economy. I can make money there. I can travel to most other countries. People from most every country in the World can come here. I can own a car here. Except for pork, I can eat meat here everyday. If I have the money, I can eat all the food I care to. I can use the internet freely in Saudi, go to the beach and swim (in NK, the beaches are fenced off to keep the people in and the “invaders out”.) I can go shopping, everything that one can do in Saudi that cannot be dreamed about in North Korea. If I am a Saudi citizen, I am not “poor”. Foreigners from India, southeast Asia and elsewhere do the menial shit labor and construction. The only tiny thing that North Korea has over Saudi Arabia is that alcohol is legal in North Korea (how much, I have no idea.). Of course, like in Saudi, there are no bars in North Korea for the common person. Probably not much of a nightlife in either place, although in Saudi, I can eat delicious middle eastern foods, while in NK, I’d be lucky to get some boiled cabbage and three day old rice. Secondly, the rights of women are the same as men in North Korea. Neither have basic human rights in North Korea, but the woman is not chattel to the man, at least not as much as she would be in Saudi. Korea is a very male dominant society, and since NK hasn’t changed since the 1940’s, the “man as boss” and “woman as cook, cleaner and sexual partner” is probably dominant. At least in Saudi, the woman can go shopping and buy enough food to take care of her children and her husband. An average North Korean has no electricity, has no money, lives off government rations, works an awful menail job she cannot quit. I would think that Saudi and NK are about the same in “social devices”. Probably almost no prostitution or gambling. Very strict laws about doing drugs. In Saudi, things like KTV’s and strip bars are probably unheard of, as they would be in North Korea. Pornography of any kind is very restricted. I would think in North Korea that being homosexual would be seen as “counter revolutionary” whereas in Saudi it could be met with the death penalty. If you hate religion and want no places of worship to be seen or heard, North Korea is the place for you. I, however feel that religion and culture are very interconnected. In Saudi, the only official religion is Islam, and their particular sect of the faith. No other church is allowed in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The Iranian government doesn’t even go that far. For me as a male, it would be a pain in the ass if I was home in my cool air conditioning when my sister tells me I have to go with her to the store because she is not allowed to travel on her own. The women there really need to fight for their rights. I would much rather be a Saudi citizen, even a woman citizen, over being any kind of citizen in NK. The only person in NK I would want to be is that son of the Dear Leader so one day I could free my people fro, their tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/32 "2010-07-03T12:40:07Z")
North Korea. As long as I have beer, cigarettes, some place to sit, and somebody to converse with then I can get by just fine. Thank God the OP didn’t include Liberia. I don’t think I would accept any amount of money to more there for any amount of time. That Vice video made North Korea look like Club Med. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/33 "2010-07-03T12:46:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > Of course, like in Saudi, there are no bars in North Korea for the common person. Probably not much of a nightlife in either place Not true. There are bars and restaurants in North Korea that cater to the everyday citizen, there is alcohol available in many stores. I saw it with my own eyes. There is something approaching a nightlife. There are large karaoke parlors, bowling alleys, and discos that sit totally empty most of the time but are opened if even one foreigner shows his face nearby. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/34 "2010-07-03T13:22:04Z")
WRT North Korea ask [Joe Dresnek](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/25/60minutes/main2398580.shtml). I think booze would pick NK for me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/35 "2010-07-03T16:08:51Z")
deleted ---
**Author:** ![sweepkick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@sweepkick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweepkick)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/36 "2010-07-03T19:30:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > As I said that I am no fan of S Arabia. But unlike Kyla and you and probably most people on this board I actually lived there for nearly two years. And enjoyed every moment of it. My father was gone most of the time, he was in the army (posted as an instructor) and thus it was just me and my mother and and we did not live in an expat compound and we went shopping, went to parks (though not a good idea in the middle of summer), went on a bus, in Jeddah went to the beach, and all sans a “mehram”, I did not count, I was about 8. > > I am amazed at the vicereal hatred of Saudis on this board, if you said this about any other country you would get a warning, but seems kosher for S Arabia. What the hell are you talking about? No one is expressing any kind of “visceral hatred” for Saudis in this thread. As for the _country_ of Saudi Arabia, however, expressing concerns about women’s rights and freedom in general is perfectly valid and a major concern. Equating valid women’s rights concerns with discrimination/hatred is disingenuous, and calls into question your motives. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/37 "2010-07-03T20:11:43Z")
I don’t hate Saudis. I’m trying to think if I’ve ever actually met a Saudi, and tbh I can’t think of any. But I’m pretty sure I don’t hate them, and I don’t appreciate you insinuating that I do. But I can’t say I’d be super thrilled to live in a place where, as a woman, I’d be considered to have significantly fewer rights and opportunities than men. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/38 "2010-07-03T21:30:27Z")
Saudi Arabia. I suspect I would see fewer miserable people than in North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/39 "2010-07-03T21:35:39Z")
Anyone voting NK is taking the piss (unless they’re Jewish). There are a million and one things wrong with Saudi Arabia, which has shocking values and laws, particularly with regards to women’s rights, but seriously - c’mon. I suspect most votes against SA are either ideological or due to knowing next-to-nothing about the two places. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/40 "2010-07-04T05:41:31Z")
> [@OP](#): > > You will have a comfortable material lifestyle that is the equivalent of a middle-class household in the United States or Canada, including free access to health care and education. In NK, you’ll sill have plenty of food through famines. ISTM that the number one worst thing about North Korea would be material deprivation - which, by the terms of the OP, you don’t need to worry about. Apart from that and not being able to criticise the Glorious Leader, what else have you got? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378.md?page=3)