# Saudi Arabia or North Korea: where would you rather live? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378 "2010-07-03T01:41:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/61 "2010-07-04T16:15:28Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I was a small child when I lived in S Arabia true, but I have been back many times since including about 8 months ago, for periods ranging for a few days to nearky 3 months. On many of these visits I have had to travel with women, muslims women, non muslims, white women and have dealt with expats living in Saudi. So frankly **Kyla’s** assessment does not hold much water. Can I drive a car? ---
**Author:** ![Terra1041](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Terra1041](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terra1041)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/62 "2010-07-04T18:44:48Z")
Probably North Korea, being atheist and lesbian and all that. Although the suicide option would sound intriguing if I had to do this \<_\< \>_\> ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/63 "2010-07-04T19:22:58Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Can I drive a car? Can she walk down the street without a head covering while holding hands with a man… or another woman? How about wearing capri pants and a short sleeved blouse on a hot day? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/64 "2010-07-04T19:38:44Z")
One of my college friends is from Saudi Arabia- she moved here freshman year of college. I do know the Saudi …government? Royal Family? Whatever? . . . is paying her college tuition and giving her a living stipend. Now, she loves her country, but hates the laws, the people in charge, etc. She said she’s never going back. In fact, to put this in perspective: last year, she got the First Amendment tattooed on her arm. I’ve heard all kinds of stories- she says she was arrested as a teen countless times by what she referred to as “the morality police” for: not covering her hair in public, being with a non family male in public, being alone in public, etc. She said the police would forcefully drag her home, give her to her father, and tell him to beat her to teach her what her place is as a woman. Her father would agree with the cops, close the door, then start laughing- as he was a rather modern, enlightened guy. She said that even though she’s never personally witnessed it (women aren’t allowed, you see), there were oodles of stonings of women for various grievances. And even though she is from a very wealthy family— huge house, drivers, servants, mind blowingly expensive cars- she’d never ever go back. I think this poll would be more interesting if it was broken down by sex. Like, I’m going to imagine more women are picking NK, while more men are picking Saudi. For me, I suppose if I had to, I’d pick NK. I’d probably die either way though, I’ve got a big ass mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/65 "2010-07-04T19:55:34Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ^ > I was a small child when I lived in S Arabia true, but I have been back many times since including about 8 months ago, for periods ranging for a few days to nearky 3 months. On many of these visits I have had to travel with women, muslims women, non muslims, white women and have dealt with expats living in Saudi. So frankly **Kyla’s** assessment does not hold much water. > > Heres one (admittedly recruitment) bit for S Arabia > > [http://www.ihrcanada.com/myth.htm](http://www.ihrcanada.com/myth.htm) From that cite: > [@](#): > > # North American and Western women do NOT have to cover their faces, and won’t lose their jobs or be sent to prison or get deported for that. As with every woman living in Saudi, they have to wear a loose black “over - whole” called “Abaya” over their regular clothes when they leave the housing compound. > > # Nurses CAN leave the compound on their own unescorted to go shopping, making visits or socialize; there are NO restrictions on their movement around town. > > # As for women walking behind men, this is really a Saudi tradition that does NOT apply to Western women! Now, that’s what the law requires. However, note that even non-Muslim Western women have to wear an abaya over their regular clothes. And I would be shocked to learn that even if women are not legally required to cover their faces and can go unescorted, that they are not harassed. In other words, I think that women are sexually harassed more in S Arabia than they are in N Korea. I’m not willing to put up with that level of harassment on a daily basis. Are the morality police really going to stop me and ask if I’m a Western woman, and a non Muslim? Or are they just going to assume that they can beat me for going around unescorted? I don’t trust theocracies. I don’t trust loonocracies, either, but at least just about everyone will agree that Kim is batshit crazy…as long as they’re sure they won’t be overheard or reported. But in a theocracy, the morality police have law and custom on their side, and most of the men would think that I had brought it on myself for being a disrespectful woman. And hell, I’d agree that I brought it on myself for choosing to live in such a place, in such a society. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/66 "2010-07-04T20:12:41Z")
BTW, so many overseas Filipino workers got arrested by the Saudi morality police (often for doing things like wearing crucifix necklaces) that the president of the Philippines went to Saudi Arabia to personally plead with the king to let them out of prison. It worked! Yay for Saudi justice! BTW, I _still_ said I’d rather go to Saudi than NK. I have a real horror of being cut off from the rest of the world. I just wouldn’t be thrilled to be in either place. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/67 "2010-07-05T15:35:44Z")
North Korea. If I’m going to be miserable I’d rather it wasn’t largely because I don’t have a penis. I certainly don’t want to have to stuff my little daughter into a black cloth on a ninety degree day solely because she’s a girl and not a boy. The very idea makes me want to take the people who dream up such laws and beat them to death. The Saudis treat women like property. Why is that so horrible to admit? Sexism is neither excusable or defensible. Besides at some point I think the “dear leader” might drop dead and NK could change. I don’t see the same happening to the lunatics who run SA anytime in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/68 "2010-07-05T15:48:23Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I certainly don’t want to have to stuff my little daughter into a black cloth on a ninety degree day solely because she’s a girl and not a boy. See, that’s both ignorant and racist. Congrats. Loose fitting black robes are the best way of cooling down in the heat. As noted by Cecil in [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1886/does-black-clothing-keep-you-cooler), people in the Middle East have been wearing these clothes for centuries precisely for this reason… so I guess I’d rather my daughter wore something that would keep her cool and comfortable, even at the risk of provoking racist schmucks like you. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/69 "2010-07-05T16:10:13Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > See, that’s both ignorant and racist. Congrats. > > Loose fitting black robes are the best way of cooling down in the heat. > > As noted by Cecil in [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1886/does-black-clothing-keep-you-cooler), people in the Middle East have been wearing these clothes for centuries precisely for this reason… so I guess I’d rather my daughter wore something that would keep her cool and comfortable, even at the risk of provoking racist schmucks like you. You want to see ignorant? Go read a Saudi textbook: > [@](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html) > > A review of a sample of official Saudi textbooks for Islamic studies used during the current academic year reveals that, despite the Saudi government’s statements to the contrary, an ideology of hatred toward Christians and Jews and Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine remains in this area of the public school system. The texts teach a dualistic vision, dividing the world into true believers of Islam (the “monotheists”) and unbelievers (the “polytheists” and “infidels”). The Saudis have institutionalized hatred of other cultures in their very own schools. Worse they finance hatred of other people all over the entire world via said textbooks. That sucks. They literally teach their kids that Jews are apes and Christians are pigs. Since we’ll calling people names do you find that kind of behavior acceptable? You want to dress in black robes in ninety degree head? Hey go ahead. But when you legally _mandate it_ for anyone else solely because they have a vagina and not a penis go to hell. That’s pure sexism. FYI, the Saudis are not a race. They’re an ethnic group. If they don’t want to criticise their culture they should stop making laws that single out people like myself on the basis of my religion and my gender. Until they do I am under no obligation to respect their culture let alone declare it off limits from criticism. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/70 "2010-07-05T16:22:20Z")
Here’s another reason I would rather live in NK: > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01iht-saudi.html?scp=5&sq=saudi%20arabia&st=cse](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01iht-saudi.html?scp=5&sq=saudi%20arabia&st=cse) > > Every Saudi woman, regardless of age or status, must have a male relative who acts as her guardian and has responsibility for and authority over her in a host of legal and personal matters. What grown woman wants to be treated like a child solely because she’s female? :rolleyes: No thank you. More here: > [@](#): > > [SAUDI ARABIA: A nightmare for women](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/04/saudi-arabia-a.html) > > Human Rights Watch today released a 54-page report criticizing the lack of women’s rights in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, one of America’s key allies in the Middle East. > > It is a lengthy indictment of a a legal system that deprives women of basic rights considered ordinary almost everywhere else in the world. > > According to the report, the law treats Saudi women like children, maybe worse. > > If you’re a Saudi woman, you can’t board an airplane, get a job, go to school or get married without the permission of a male “guardian,” whether a husband, father or, if they’re both out of the picture, your son. > > You’re not even allowed to make decisions on behalf of your own children without the approval of your husband or father. > > Sometimes you’re even barred from undergoing a medical exam or leaving a hospital without the permission of a male relative. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/71 "2010-07-05T16:52:20Z")
I’m stunned that so many of you would choose North Korea, and I’m female too. Honestly, as much as I’d dislike some aspects of Saudi culture, it’s not even a contest. North Korea scares the everloving **shit** out of me, and I’d end up dead in a week since there’s no way I could just go along with that nightmare. I don’t think I could even visit. I don’t think, morally, I could keep my mouth shut. Ever seen the Vice Guide to NK? When that guy has to buy flowers to leave at the statue of Kim Il-sung, I want to scream. I’ll take losing my ability to drive and wearing whatever I’m supposed to over having to bow and scrape before an insane despot who is actively making his own people suffer horribly. Saudi Arabia is just not that bad in the grand scheme of things; certainly pretty comparable to how the West was not all that long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/72 "2010-07-05T17:16:12Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > See, that’s both ignorant and racist. Congrats. > > Loose fitting black robes are the best way of cooling down in the heat. > > As noted by Cecil in [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1886/does-black-clothing-keep-you-cooler), people in the Middle East have been wearing these clothes for centuries precisely for this reason… so I guess I’d rather my daughter wore something that would keep her cool and comfortable, even at the risk of provoking racist schmucks like you. Black absorbs heat and and a great deal of heat is dissipated through the head. Wearing a black garment that covers the head does not cool a person off, it absorbs and retains heat. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/73 "2010-07-05T18:04:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Black absorbs heat and and a great deal of heat is dissipated through the head. Wearing a black garment that covers the head does not cool a person off, it absorbs and retains heat. This is partially incorrect. Black robes do trap more heat, but they dissipate it by creating a buoyancy effect that causes constant circulation, pulling cool air from below and pushing warm air out the top. Quick [cite](http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/aug/15/research.highereducation). ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/74 "2010-07-05T20:29:05Z")
Either one if I’m assured I can live 10 more years. I’m 83. Just kidding. I’d choose North Korea ‘cause I like lil’ women with straight hair. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/75 "2010-07-05T22:10:53Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > I’d choose North Korea ‘cause I like lil’ women with straight hair. 😉 I’d choose North Korea ‘cause I like lil’ women with [del]straight[/del] visible hair. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/76 "2010-07-05T22:25:20Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Saudi Arabia. I suspect I would see fewer miserable people than in North Korea. True enough. That’s probably why they have all those travel restrictions for women. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/77 "2010-07-05T22:37:40Z")
I’d pick S.A. because I could fake the religiosity (It’d be like blending in with ignorant, superstitious natives, and living in the Bible Belt, I’m pretty good at that) am male and don’t drink, and am married. Of course, persuading Mrs. Evil Captor … that’d be difficult, I imagine. Hell, the weather alone would make her find North Korea more attractive. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/78 "2010-07-06T00:10:18Z")
Both are run by dictatorial governments but in Saudi you wouldn’t be surrounded by extreme poverty all the time. According to the scenario presented in the OP you yourself would be rich and comfortable whichever one you lived in so the economic thing would boil down to whether it would bother you seeing other people downtrodden and starving. One big difference would be that in NK the ordinary people probably aren’t all that enamoured of the ruling ideology (communism) or the leadership. In SA, however, the people are fine with the ruling ideology (wahabi islam) even if they don’t like the leadership. If they got rid of the leadership in SA they would just replace it with something similar or worse. If they got rid of the leadership in NK they might replace it with something like South Korea or at least better than what they’ve got now. In NK the people are imprisoned as a group by the regime. In SA the people are imprisoned individually by their own minds. Thus on an individual level I think I would find it easier to get on with an average North Korean than an average Saudi. I’m sure I could get on with both but at least if the North Korean is going to argue politics then that’s something we can get our teeth into. If the Saudi is going to argue revealed scripture from Mohammed then I’m going to start yawning pretty soon. Saudi: God says thieves should have their right hand cut off Me: Seems a harsh punishment for such a minor crime. What about rehabilitation of offenders? Lots of thieves turn their lives around after a spell in jail and stop thieving. If you chop their hand off you make it difficult for them to get a proper job in future and make it more likely they will have to continue thieving. Also what if you got the wrong man and chopped the hand off someone who was innocent? Saudi: God says thieves should have their right hand cut off Me: Oh ok. When’s the next flight to Pyongyang? ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/79 "2010-07-06T00:29:52Z")
Culturally I like North Korea better than Saudi Arabia. I’m going to visit ruins while I’m exiled. I like the entertainment much better. I also hate dead sandy spaces. P.S. You know what you can trade food for during a famine. Anything you want. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378/80 "2010-07-06T00:57:26Z")
North Korea. The climate agrees with me better, and the chances of me getting into trouble there are a lot better than in a theocratic state. Since I’d be rich there, I could content myself with helping the people in my area by hiring them on for work. There’s always ways around legal issues; bribes, promises for favors, shmoozing, etc… How do you get around god though? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-arabia-or-north-korea-where-would-you-rather-live/545378.md?page=5)