# Saudi judge seeks hospitals willing to injure man's spine in "eye for eye"-punishment. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076 "2010-08-22T16:09:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/21 "2010-08-23T13:25:00Z")
> [@Silver\_Fire](#): > > > [@Kilmore](#): > > > > Not only may this be considered barbaric, it’s socially retarded. They’re going to deliberately reduce a potentially useful member of society to a mouth and an anus. I would make the perpetrator be the victim’s hands and feet for at least 8 hours a day for the rest of his life. > > This. Medical ethics aside, I can’t see intentionally making somebody (I don’t want to say “useless” but I can’t come up with anything else; “a less productive member of society” maybe?) just for revenge. Where’s the benefit? Revenge is its own benefit? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/22 "2010-08-23T15:00:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “First, do no harm”, comes from Latin (_primum non nocere_), not Greek; it’s not part of the ancient or modern Hippocratic Oaths. It’s a maxim attributed to several different French and English physicians, and can be traced back no further than about 1650. To be fair, before 1650, physicians did a lot of harm. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/23 "2010-08-23T15:15:56Z")
Purely as a matter of medical science, how predictable are spine injuries, and how precise is our capacity to inflict them? That is, _could_ a sufficiently amoral Saudi surgeon reasonably expect to inflict a degree of injury approximating that of the original victim, not much more and not much less? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/24 "2010-08-23T15:22:44Z")
yeah, this is horrible. Why Saudi Arabia is exempt from political scrutiny is beyond my comprehension. Where are all the campus protests like there were against South Africa? SA is a brutal, nasty regime that denies basic freedoms and wastes its vast sums of revenue buying gold plated toilets for a bunch of thugs who set themselves up as a “royal family”. Was it 15 of the 17 9/11 terrorists who were Saudis? But at least they aren’t Jewish. If Israel spells the name wrong on a parking ticket there’s an international hue and cry. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/25 "2010-08-23T15:23:52Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > “First, do no harm”, comes from Latin (_primum non nocere_), not Greek; it’s not part of the ancient or modern Hippocratic Oaths. It’s a maxim attributed to several different French and English physicians, and can be traced back no further than about 1650. > > To be fair, before 1650, physicians did a lot of harm. But this is Saudi Arabia, they’re stuck somewhere around 1300. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/26 "2010-08-23T15:28:21Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > “First, do no harm”, comes from Latin (_primum non nocere_), not Greek; it’s not part of the ancient or modern Hippocratic Oaths. It’s a maxim attributed to several different French and English physicians, and can be traced back no further than about 1650. > > To be fair, before 1650, physicians did a lot of harm. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/27 "2010-08-23T23:13:46Z")
It is sort of heartening to read that the hospitals approached appear not to be keen on the idea. I don’t _know_ but I imagine that bespeaks a certain amount of courage in Saudi Arabia. A sentence of fourteen months, reduced to seven, does seem strangely lenient, to quite an astounding degree, really. One wonders whether the convicted one had good local contacts with the court system or what. I see that the victim is aged 22, and that this fight took place two years ago. Oh ye gods, is this a case of two stupid young men fighting over who-knows-what and forgetting the little tiny detail that people can actually get seriously hurt. Very seriously. I cannot see the point, exactly, in deliberately paralysing this criminal guy. Well, OK, I could see that the victim might think “I want him to feel as I do, and to put up with the horrible troubles I have”. Fine, the victim doesn’t want this guy to be free to go around and enjoy a full life when he cannot, and one does understand this feeling, BUT it won’t make the paralysed victim any better. If the request was not to paralyse this person, but to require him to give money or to work in helping paralysed people, there might be more sense. Also, a crime was committed, a sentence given, and how can it be right later to add another punishment? > [@River\_Hippie](#): > > I always wondered what they do in Sharia law if someone is later proven to be innocent. > > Can’t put thier hand back on can ya. Or give 'em a new spine. > > Maybe Sharia law is infallible. No, indeed not. However, some countries do practise capital punishment. Has resurrection became practicable? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/28 "2010-08-23T23:34:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@pendgwen](#): > > > > I don’t know what the medical ethics are like in Saudi Arabia but that’s a pretty big violation of “first, do no harm”. > > “Thing is, Doc, there’s a criminal we’re set to execute; we often apply the death penalty for offenses like the one he committed, when (a) he can’t undo the damage the way a thief can return stolen money or whatever, and (b) we can’t inflict eye-for-an-eye justice. Anyhow, the prisoner has asked if you can paralyze him instead of having us kill him, and, well, if you’re up for that, I guess we’d prefer it too.” > > What should a physician do in that case? Is this a serious question? You think a physician could be made to feel guilty about being the cause of a man’s death because the physician would not agree to maim the guy instead? The correct answer is, “You will do what you will do. I will not have any part of it.” Physicians (in America at least) don’t participate in executions either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/29 "2010-08-24T02:53:36Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Is this a serious question? You think a physician could be made to feel guilty about being the cause of a man’s death because the physician would not agree to maim the guy instead? I’m not trying to make him feel guilty. If it helps you, imagine a doctor who honestly won’t feel guilty either way; it’s simply that he’s in a situation where someone who’d rather be A than B is about to become B unless the doctor helps him become A. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/30 "2010-08-24T03:15:51Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > > Is this a serious question? You think a physician could be made to feel guilty about being the cause of a man’s death because the physician would not agree to maim the guy instead? > > I’m not trying to make him feel guilty. If it helps you, imagine a doctor who honestly won’t feel guilty either way; it’s simply that he’s in a situation where someone who’d rather be A than B is about to become B unless the doctor helps him become A. Perhaps my post was confusing. I think that’s an extremely unlikely argument to convince a doctor to injure someone. “You maim him or I’ll kill him.” What would you do if someone walked into your home with a hostage, a gun and a hammer? And then hands you the hammer, and says. “Break every bone on this guy’s body or I’ll put a bullet in his head. But either way, I won’t hurt you.” Would you do it? I think I’m gonna do a poll on this. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/31 "2010-08-24T03:21:25Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > I always wondered what they do in Sharia law if someone is later proven to be innocent. > > Can’t put thier hand back on can ya. Or give 'em a new spine. > > Maybe Sharia law is infallible. Say that 90% of people convicted of a crime are guilty, and 10% innocent. We’ll also say that we could rate the penalty for a crime on a scale of 1 to 10 and for each notch higher on that scale, people are 5% less likely to commit that crime. If we have two nations, Alphania and Betastan, each with a population of 100,000 people. Alphania has an average punishment rating of 5 for cases of murder, and has a yearly murder rate of 500. Betastan has a rating of 8 for murder, which makes there be 15% fewer murders, for a result of 425 murders per year. About 2/3rds of the time, the murderer will be found and prosecuted, so we’ll have 333 murderers prosecuted in Alphania and 283 in Betastan. 33 of the Alphanians and 28 of the Betans will be innocent. Both of these groups are being punished unfairly, though the Betans are getting it worse. But, we have saved 75 lives and there are 5 fewer people being punished unfairly. As a society, it may well be worth deciding to hand out stronger punishments as ultimately it creates the greater good. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/32 "2010-08-24T03:32:30Z")
I think it’s wrong. It seems hard to find details on the original offence. It makes a big difference if they were just in a punch up and one guy fell over a table, say, or if one guy was beating the other, with a weapon, while he was down on the ground. In the former case paralysis was not anyone’s intention or reasonable expectation. The law should take account of intent, though it is not always possible. Finally, punishments should not be about revenge. They should be about protecting society, rehabilitation and, yes, deterrent. But the problem with revenge and eye-for-an-eye, is that society is essentially approving of wicked behaviour (or being hypocritical). It’s society saying it’s wrong to paralyze someone, just cos you’re pissed with them, so we’re going to do the same to you. Because we’re pissed with you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/33 "2010-08-24T03:45:51Z")
I’ve generally been in favor of and have wished for eye-for-an-eye justice, especially in the case of people who torture their victims. **Qadgop** made an interesting observation, though, that disabused me of that notion at least somewhat. He observed that such punishments would irrevocably damage the people who had to carry them out. I’d never looked at it in that way. Maybe robots. Yeah! Robots! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/34 "2010-08-24T03:59:02Z")
FYI, I posted a[poll here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=575613) positing a similar situation and asking whether you would maim a person rather than see him killed by someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/35 "2010-08-24T13:17:23Z")
Oh, **Starving**. We finally find a new industry which can’t be outsourced and here you are giving away the jobs right off the bat. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/36 "2010-08-24T13:27:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh, **Starving**. We finally find a new industry which can’t be outsourced and here you are giving away the jobs right off the bat. It’s already outsourced – all those CIA sponsored prisoners scattered around the world ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/37 "2010-08-24T13:51:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Say that 90% of people convicted of a crime are guilty, and 10% innocent. We’ll also say that we could rate the penalty for a crime on a scale of 1 to 10 and for each notch higher on that scale, people are 5% less likely to commit that crime. > > If we have two nations, Alphania and Betastan, each with a population of 100,000 people. Alphania has an average punishment rating of 5 for cases of murder, and has a yearly murder rate of 500. Betastan has a rating of 8 for murder, which makes there be 15% fewer murders, for a result of 425 murders per year. > > About 2/3rds of the time, the murderer will be found and prosecuted, so we’ll have 333 murderers prosecuted in Alphania and 283 in Betastan. 33 of the Alphanians and 28 of the Betans will be innocent. Both of these groups are being punished unfairly, though the Betans are getting it worse. But, we have saved 75 lives and there are 5 fewer people being punished unfairly. As a society, it may well be worth deciding to hand out stronger punishments as ultimately it creates the greater good. Which of course relies entirely on the premise that stronger penalties actually working as a deterrent. How’s that murder rate working for you in the US these days? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/38 "2010-08-24T13:51:14Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I would sentence this guy to be his victim’s indentured servant for life. Sorta like Seinfeld meets Saudi Arabia? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/39 "2010-08-24T14:11:11Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Which of course relies entirely on the premise that stronger penalties actually working as a deterrent. How’s that murder rate working for you in the US these days? It plummeted over the course of 15 years after (I presume) three strikes laws were passed. [![](http://stubbornfacts.us/files/ViolentCrimeRateTrend2.gif) ](http://stubbornfacts.us/files/ViolentCrimeRateTrend2.gif) Here’s the UK as a comparison: [http://www.lifenews.com/crim.jpg](http://www.lifenews.com/crim.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076/40 "2010-08-24T14:17:50Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > I had to read this a couple of times: > > > [@](#): > > > > The victim, aged 22, was left paralyzed and subsequently lost a foot after a fight more than two years ago. > > I was wondering what kind of SOB would get into a fight with a paralyzed man and cut off his foot. I just want to know if the guy ever found his foot again. When I lose something I like to retrace my steps, but I don’t think that would work in this case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-judge-seeks-hospitals-willing-to-injure-mans-spine-in-eye-for-eye-punishment/551076.md?page=3)