# Saudi woman punished for... being gang-raped **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2009, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067 "2009-02-16T08:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/101 "2009-02-19T03:45:18Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Right, she could have, but in THIS CASE, she didn’t and sure as turd follows fart, she was raped. There aren’t safe options for women within the pit of vipers known as Saudi Arabia. But then again, they have to know that. It’s called situational awareness, if you lack it, there’s a chance you could die. It’s a horrible place to be a woman, then again, it’s really none of our business. Yeah, but I’m saying that how do you know she got raped because she accepted a ride? For all we know, she might have known the men who raped her. I’m just saying that if you live somewhere as dangerous as Saudi Arabia, sometimes there is no good choice. It’s the society that’s fucked up, not her choices. It’s like saying that in pre Civil Rights era South it was just a horrible place to be black, and it sucks, but if a black man made advances towards a white woman, he’d get himself lynched, and that’s just the way it is. I think if a society has no concept of human rights violations that blaming what should be innocuous actions is just too creepy. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/102 "2009-02-19T04:12:38Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, but I’m saying that how do you know she got raped because she accepted a ride? For all we know, she might have known the men who raped her. I’m just saying that if you live somewhere as dangerous as Saudi Arabia, sometimes there is no good choice. It’s the society that’s fucked up, not her choices. > > It’s like saying that in pre Civil Rights era South it was just a horrible place to be black, and it sucks, but if a black man made advances towards a white woman, he’d get himself lynched, and that’s just the way it is. I think if a society has no concept of human rights violations that blaming what should be innocuous actions is just too creepy. I don’t and it doesn’t matter. I don’t know that, other than fleeing, there IS a good resolve for this, but it’s something you know damn well you have to live with. It’s nothing like that at all; there were people in this country actively interested in changing the way the South operated, some of them were actually IN the south. Murder and rape, even then, was illegal in America, though none of the good ol’ boys would actually be charged with lynchin’ it was on-the-books illegal and the victims of the crimes were victims only at the hands of their assailants, not of the justice system TOO. Your last comment goes to my point about human rights. If a woman can choose what to put ON in the morning, whatever country she lives in, is so far beyond the pale when it comes to human rights, she’s better off leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/103 "2009-02-19T04:40:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m just saying that if you live somewhere as dangerous as Saudi Arabia, sometimes there is no good choice. It’s the society that’s fucked up, not her choices. “Somewhere as dangerous as Saudi Arabia”? Fucked up as it is, Saudi Arabia is hardly dangerous. You’re [five times more likely](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate) to be murdered here in good ol’ America. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/104 "2009-02-19T08:10:31Z")
What’s the rate of getting lashed for being gang raped in both countries? Murder isn’t the only statistic relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/105 "2009-02-19T09:21:04Z")
I’d also like to see how the Saudis define murder. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/106 "2009-02-19T10:04:53Z")
Not sure if this has been addressed, but how can we be sure that things happened they way she reported or “confessed”? It’s possible that she did hitch a ride with some dude because she wanted to have sex with him, and then, after she got pregnant, claimed rape. The “punish her because she was raped” laws are stupid, but in this particular case, how do we know she was indeed raped? If anyone has links to a website with more details on the story, it might clarify things. As is, most of my search results point back to that Saudi Gazette story. ETA: Of course, people will object to punishing people for adultery, so even if it wasn’t rape, she shouldn’t be punished or sent to jail. But this is a different debate than the more ridiculous case of being punished for being raped. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/107 "2009-02-19T14:25:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d also like to see how the Saudis define murder. The Wiki page I provided is actually for the homicide rate, rather than the murder rate. Much less variation. Anyway, the point is that Saudi Arabia is a remarkably safe place, for the most part. > [@](#): > > What’s the rate of getting lashed for being gang raped in both countries? > > Murder isn’t the only statistic relevant. Since (presumably) this is a fairly rare occurrence (ie., 1 incident per year or less) it doesn’t really factor in to whether either country is “safe”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/108 "2009-02-19T14:36:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Wiki page I provided is actually for the homicide rate, rather than the murder rate. Much less variation. > > Anyway, the point is that Saudi Arabia is a remarkably safe place, for the most part. Actually, what the Wiki page you provided said was: > [@](#): > > The reliability of underlying national homicide rate data may vary.[1] A comparative analysis of homicide data must be conducted carefully. This is because the legal definition of ‘homicide’ differs among countries. Homicide may or may not include assault leading to death, infanticide and assisted suicide or euthanasia. > > Homicide demographics are affected by changes in trauma care, leading to changed lethality of violent assaults, so the homicide rate may not necessarily indicate the overall level of societal violence.[2] They may also be underreported for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/109 "2009-02-19T14:42:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “Somewhere as dangerous as Saudi Arabia”? > > Fucked up as it is, Saudi Arabia is hardly dangerous. You’re [five times more likely](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate) to be murdered here in good ol’ America. Then if it’s so safe, wasn’t it reasonable for the woman to assume she’d be emerge unscathed and unraped when she accepted a ride? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/110 "2009-02-19T14:59:11Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Then if it’s so safe, wasn’t it reasonable for the woman to assume she’d be emerge unscathed and unraped when she accepted a ride? Not being a rapist, I would generally assume it’s reasonable for a woman to accept a ride from four strange men _anywhere_. That said, I doubt many do. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/111 "2009-02-19T15:01:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not being a rapist, I would generally assume it’s reasonable for a woman to accept a ride from four strange men _anywhere_. That said, I doubt many do. Do we know they were strangers to her? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/112 "2009-02-19T15:08:15Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Do we know they were strangers to her? As a general rule, unmarried Saudi women don’t know many men who aren’t related to them, or are close enough family friends to be practically related. It’s highly unlikely, IMHO, that the man wasn’t a stranger. The original charge was actually for accepting the ride in the first place- it’s a violation of the Saudi law on segregation of the (unmarried) sexes. I just realized why this whole thing had a feeling of deja vu about it: we’ve already had at least one thread about it, because it happened in 2005: [BBC NEWS | Middle East | Saudi gang-rape victim is jailed](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stm) I was wondering if this sort of thing happened a lot, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/113 "2009-02-19T18:38:36Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Your last comment goes to my point about human rights. If a woman can choose what to put ON in the morning, whatever country she lives in, is so far beyond the pale when it comes to human rights, **she’s better off leaving.** How? By car? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/114 "2009-02-19T19:09:05Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > It’s nothing like that at all; there were people in this country actively interested in changing the way the South operated, some of them were actually IN the south. > Murder and rape, even then, was illegal in America, though none of the good ol’ boys would actually be charged with lynchin’ it was on-the-books illegal and the victims of the crimes were victims only at the hands of their assailants, not of the justice system TOO. And I’m sure there are women who want things to change in Saudi, but I don’t think it’s all that easy for them, considering how they punish women for perceived crimes. But you wouldn’t think less of someone in Europe who looked at the U.S. and shrugged and said, “That’s just the way things are–if you don’t like using separate water fountains and getting killed for being uppity, just leave?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/115 "2009-02-19T19:28:07Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s nothing like that at all; there were people in this country actively interested in changing the way the South operated, some of them were actually IN the south. > Murder and rape, even then, was illegal in America, though none of the good ol’ boys would actually be charged with lynchin’ it was on-the-books illegal and the victims of the crimes were victims only at the hands of their assailants, not of the justice system TOO. I’m not entirely sure that I’d feel any better about a justice system that failed to punish an (obviously guilty) rapist relative to one that punished a rapist and his victim. Either one is totally unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/116 "2009-02-19T21:43:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What’s the rate of getting lashed for being gang raped in both countries? > > Murder isn’t the only statistic relevant. This. How many “civilized” countries use a form of torture (lashing is torture) to punish the VICTIM? That’s fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/117 "2009-02-19T23:55:35Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > But Islam apparently does condone it (not the rape, although it looks as though that is being condoned as well). The girl is being punished along the lines of sharia law is she not? > > We saw with the Danish cartoons what Islam not condoning something looks like. If something is done in the name of Islam and there is not a similar outcry from Muslims, the Islam is condoning it. And the government if Saudi Arabia is a very prominent representative of Islam. and > [@tagos](#): > > If a culture and a legal system (in which judges have incredible latitude) based on a religion defines being raped as adultery, as it has done in this case (and then punishes the victim worse than the assailants) then I’m quite happy to blame Islam. > > It’s the pointed tip of the spear that is the oppression of women under Islam in Saudi I’ve been thinking this over, and I’ve come to the conclusion that you two are right, and I was wrong. Sigh . . . overall, I’m fine with religion. I really am. But this shit in SA and with Islam in general has been bugging me over the past couple of years. I can’t reconcile the claims to it being a religion of peace with what I’ve been seeing in SA, Afghanistan, Pakistan (especially fucking Pakistan), and any number of countries where Islam has taken over. And that’s not counting the rising antisemitism in France and England. I realize that most Muslims are probably fine. They just want to be left alone and live their lives, but on a larger level Islam’s problems have started to show, and they are not trivial. At this point, I’m not sure they’re even solvable. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/118 "2009-02-20T04:01:26Z")
I’m not a fan of Islam myself, but this “hey, how come Islam isn’t denouncing this?” meme is getting really tiresome. Saudi Arabia is dominated by Wahabists, who practice what amounts to the most reactionary form of the faith. Suggesting that Saudi Arabia is representative of Islam in general is just silly. > [@](#): > > I realize that most Muslims are probably fine. They just want to be left alone and live their lives, but on a larger level Islam’s problems have started to show, and they are not trivial. At this point, I’m not sure they’re even solvable. What are these problems, and why are they so insoluble? Societies evolve. Guess what? Christians used to be douchebags, too. Eventually, the more fanatical Muslim states will realize that they take their faith way too seriously, just as Western Europeans did during the Enlightenment. It would be nice if it happened tomorrow, but just because it won’t doesn’t meant it never will. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/119 "2009-02-20T08:02:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Saudi Arabia is dominated by Wahabists, who practice what amounts to the most reactionary form of the faith. Suggesting that Saudi Arabia is representative of Islam in general is just silly. The thing is, for something to be a representative, it has to speak out. It’s not enough to be a majority. “Representation” is not just a matter of statistics. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067/120 "2009-02-20T11:31:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The thing is, for something to be a representative, it has to speak out. It’s not enough to be a majority. “Representation” is not just a matter of statistics. Saudi Arabia pours vast sums into spreading Wahhabism world-wide. It is basically exporting the islamic terrorists favourite ideology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saudi-woman-punished-for-being-gang-raped/486067.md?page=7)