# Savage beating **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405 "2019-09-17T21:54:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/81 "2019-09-19T01:26:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The difference is that the swastika is the implication of a direct threat: “We want to Holocaust you” (or something to that effect.) Whereas “Go Bears!” is a mere nuisance and no threat. Yes, the sign holding it is also a threat, so it’s somewhat murkier, but the swastika and Bear-cheering aren’t the same. Of course they are not the same. But as you acknowledged, neither are the two signs. They differ in precisely the same way. So logically, if the difference between the signs does not change the act of carrying it from a legal to an illegal one, then putting the same messages in graffiti should not make a misdemeanor a felony. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/82 "2019-09-19T01:33:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Of course they are not the same. But as you acknowledged, neither are the two signs. They differ in precisely the same way. So logically, if the difference between the signs does not change the act of carrying it from a legal to an illegal one, then putting the same messages in graffiti should not make a misdemeanor a felony. Again, there needs to be a crime first, and then a determination if it’s a hate crime. Just like petty theft is a misdemeanor but grand larceny is a felony. Both a thefts, but the qualifier changes the degree. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/83 "2019-09-19T01:35:57Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Great. Now put yourself in a DA’s shoes and kindly explain how you will convince a jury to convict on your mind-reading of a suspect’s intentions. > > Sheesh. That actually made me laugh out loud. Do you think those convicted of it confessed their soul in court to Perry Mason? The jury only needs to believe hate was involved. Not hard to do with a brutal mob attack on video. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/84 "2019-09-19T01:51:15Z")
This whole debate right here is why I wish they’d get rid of the ‘hate crime’ designation and leave the severity of the punishment up to the judge or jury instead of these add-ons that do nothing but inflame either side. We already have designations that include harsher sentences, which in this case the charge of rioting seems appropriate (some of those charged face up to twenty years in prison, if not more). In other words enforce the laws that are already on the books. Leave the ‘hate’ part out of it and any other crimes. The sooner we do that the sooner we move on to the important issue of why this is happening in the first place, which as a worker in Minneapolis I wish would have more urgency and attention then what’s been happening up to this point in my city. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/85 "2019-09-19T01:54:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That actually made me laugh out loud. Do you think those convicted of it confessed their soul in court to Perry Mason? The jury only needs to believe hate was involved. Not hard to do with a brutal mob attack on video. I see. So if this is so easy, why has the Minneapolis DA declined to pursue hate crime charges for any of the many defendants? Take all the time you need. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/86 "2019-09-19T04:16:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It should be a crime that is hard to prove, given that it requires making assumptions on someone’s thoughts (other categories do that too, and should also be a high bar to meet). However, it’s an important category to have, since what we call hate crimes are often a form of intimidation that has its roots in domestic terrorism. > > Targeting someone because they are Jewish makes it scary for a Jew to worship openly. Attacking someone for being black can be used to keep blacks out certain neighborhoods or away from polling places. It has a cumulative ripple effect that goes beyond the individual victim, but impacts the the group from which the victim is a member. > > Certainly someone from a majority group can be a victim of a hate crime, but the impetus for the hate crime designation was to get at people who used violence or the threat of violence to keep disenfranchised and minority people down. You can’t separate the category from its history, even if it it has expanded beyond it. It is something to think about. Perhaps the designation also allows higher authorities such as the federal government to intervene when states and municipalities don’t. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m generally a fan of narrowly defined laws, so I don’t see that as a drawback. FBI statistics say that around 8000 charges of violating hate crime laws were made in 2017, although I can’t find any statistics about conviction rates. > > Not sure how being able to put give who spray paints a swastika on a synagogue a longer sentence than somebody who spray paints “Go Bears!” on a synagogue is “counterproductive.” What end do you think we would be better able to achieve by giving those two offenses the same punishment? Counterproductive because of politics when something is or isn’t a hate crime due to either the victims or criminals being part of group that is or isn’t convenient to have the act so labeled. > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > This whole debate right here is why I wish they’d get rid of the ‘hate crime’ designation and leave the severity of the punishment up to the judge or jury instead of these add-ons that do nothing but inflame either side. We already have designations that include harsher sentences, which in this case the charge of rioting seems appropriate (some of those charged face up to twenty years in prison, if not more). In other words enforce the laws that are already on the books. Leave the ‘hate’ part out of it and any other crimes. > > The sooner we do that the sooner we move on to the important issue of why this is happening in the first place, which as a worker in Minneapolis I wish would have more urgency and attention then what’s been happening up to this point in my city. Exactly. Murder or hate murder is still murder. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I see. So if this is so easy, why has the Minneapolis DA declined to pursue hate crime charges for any of the many defendants? Take all the time you need. Probably politics. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/87 "2019-09-19T07:36:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Probably politics. Just as probably, as outlined in post #23. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/88 "2019-09-19T07:53:43Z")
Let’s turn this around and look at it a different way. Whatever punishment you would envision for this as a “hate crime”, why do you think it’s too severe for this just as an “ordinary” crime of recreational violence? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/89 "2019-09-19T09:49:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Let’s turn this around and look at it a different way. Whatever punishment you would envision for this as a “hate crime”, why do you think it’s too severe for this just as an “ordinary” crime of recreational violence? Hate crimes are essentially terrorism. Let’s go with the following hypothetical. If gay men are targeted and beaten for being sighted at a gay bar, it makes gay men afraid to walk openly in the street. All gay men, all the time, because there are people targeting them, specifically, for beatings. The hate crime impacts all gay men in a direct way. If a gang of thugs beats someone up during a robbery, everyone shares the concern equally. Nobody is afraid to be who they are, to be openly what they are, to be free to walk the streets just like everyone else. That attack is part of society as a whole, and can be treated as simply an act of violence, that we all deal with equally. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/90 "2019-09-19T11:36:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The jury only needs to believe hate was involved. Not hard to do with a brutal mob attack on video. The jury needs to be convinced _beyond a reasonable doubt_ that the crime was motivated by hate that is based on protected class. [At present, the US list of protected classes includes:](https://www.google.com/search?q=list%20of%20protected%20classes&cad=h) [ul][li]Race[/li][li]Color[/li][li]Religion or creed[/li][li]National origin or ancestry[/li][li]Sex[/li][li]Age[/li][li]Physical or mental disability[/li][li]Veteran status[/li][li]Genetic information[/li][li]Citizenship[/ul][/li] “You’re not from around here” is not a protected class, so hatred based on “you’re not from around here” does not meet the legal standard for defining this as a hate crime. The mere fact, by itself, of black assailants attacking a white victim (or vice versa) is not enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the attack was racially motivated. There needs to be something else, e.g. the use of racial epithets by the assailants during the attack, or a pattern of attacking only people of a certain race despite having opportunities to attack people of other races, to serve as evidence of racial hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/91 "2019-09-19T14:35:56Z")
I don’t know how often I agree with foodstuffs but **Cheesesteak** is right. I used to oppose hate crimes legislation because it seemed like it was punishing the expressive conduct. Courts have rightfully rejected this view because crimes aren’t protected speech. Hate crimes legislation is small way of protecting people’s ability to participate in public, without regard to their race, color, religion, etc. It’s a fundamental civil rights issue. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/92 "2019-09-19T14:49:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If a gang of thugs beats someone up during a robbery, everyone shares the concern equally. Nobody is afraid to be who they are, to be openly what they are, to be free to walk the streets just like everyone else. That attack is part of society as a whole, and can be treated as simply an act of violence, that we all deal with equally. This is complete nonsense. Random acts of group violence terrorize the weakest and most helpless portions of society. For elderly people who need to go to the doctor or shop, their stress levels would be through the roof. If a group is targeting all others for violent attack except their own group then that should be enough to prove a hate crime. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/93 "2019-09-19T15:07:28Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > If a group is targeting all others for violent attack except their own group then that should be enough to prove a hate crime. Not as the law is currently written. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/94 "2019-09-19T15:31:12Z")
It’s like at work- certain policy violations come under title IX, if the person is in a protected class. Similar acts not against a protected class can be sanctioned by the employer, but not under title IX rules. You cannot erase the history of systemic disenfranchisement that these laws are trying address, no matter how much you’d like to. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/95 "2019-09-19T15:36:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > If a group is targeting all others for violent attack This is going to sound like etymological nitpicking, but it isn’t. You can’t “target” all others, because to target something means to select a specific object for your attack. “Everybody but me and my friends” isn’t a specific target it’s just random violent crime. Random violent crime is subject to punishment, but not special punishment because it isn’t special. You don’t need to create a new punishment for it, just make the normal punishment appropriate. Targeted violent crime is special because the act of targeting serves to increase the impact of that crime on the targeted group. A group who, already, has to deal with all the same fears of regular violent crime that everyone else does. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/96 "2019-09-19T16:39:54Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > If it were you maybe. Don’t wish harm on another poster. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/97 "2019-09-19T16:42:31Z")
**Moderator Warning** > [@Ambivalid](#): > > I got everything i needed to make what I guess to be an accurate surmisal of this OP without even clicking on the thread. Title/username combo alone gave me _more_ than enough info to know this was a vile, racist, whataboutist piece of predictable garbage. > > So how’d I do? This is IMHO, not the Pit. The “Title/username combo” clearly indicates that you are attacking/insulting the user and not attacking the post, so this is an official warning for personal insults. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/98 "2019-09-19T16:46:37Z")
**Moderator Action** This thread has turned into more of a debate than just a call for opinions, so let’s move this over to Great Debates (from IMHO). ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/99 "2019-09-19T17:43:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It’s like at work- certain policy violations come under title IX, if the person is in a protected class. Similar acts not against a protected class can be sanctioned by the employer, but not under title IX rules. > > You cannot erase the history of systemic disenfranchisement that these laws are trying address, no matter how much you’d like to. Every human is in at least 8 of the classes Machine Elf listed. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/100 "2019-09-19T17:47:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Every human is in at least 8 of the classes Machine Elf listed. And when you can demonstrate that the attack was because of a specific value of one of those classes then you have a hate crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405.md?page=6)