# Savage beating **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405 "2019-09-17T21:54:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/121 "2019-09-19T23:38:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Have you tried reading the thread? The answers are right there. Then cite a post that answered the specific question I asked, not some general thought experiments about why enhanced penalties are appropriate in some hypothetical circumstances. This specific question, if you need reminding, is whether (and if so, why) whatever harsh penalty would be assessed for a hate crime in this beating would be unjustly harsh if they were just doing it for fun. I actually think that it is slightly less heinous for them to hate white people than it is for them to just think it is fun to inflict creative forms of violence on an unresisting and innocent victim without concern to race. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/122 "2019-09-19T23:54:23Z")
[For some actual information:](https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/victims) > [@](#): > > Racial/ethnicity/ancestry bias (Based on Table 1.) > Among single-bias hate crime incidents in 2017, there were 5,060 victims of race/ethnicity/ancestry motivated hate crime. > > 48.6 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Black or African American bias. > 17.1 percent were victims of anti-White bias. > 10.9 percent were victims of anti-Hispanic or Latino bias. > 6.3 percent were victims of anti-American Indian or Alaska Native bias. > 4.5 percent were victims of bias against a group of individuals in which more than one race was represented (anti-multiple races, group). > 3.3 percent were victims of anti-Asian bias. > 2.6 percent were victims of anti-Arab bias. > 0.4 percent (18 individuals) were victims of anti-Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander bias. > 6.4 percent were victims of anti-Other Race/Ethnicity/Ancestry bias. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/123 "2019-09-20T00:40:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then cite a post that answered the specific question I asked, not some general thought experiments about why enhanced penalties are appropriate in some hypothetical circumstances. This specific question, if you need reminding, is whether (and if so, why) whatever harsh penalty would be assessed for a hate crime in this beating would be unjustly harsh if they were just doing it for fun. My apologies, I misunderstood. I thought your question was in some way related to the conversation that was happening in this thread. I didn’t realize you were talking about something else, entirely. Consider my last two posts retracted. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/124 "2019-09-20T01:00:42Z")
I’m gonna have to watch 12.5 hours of BULLY GETS OWNED!!! videos to make up for watching that one. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/125 "2019-09-20T02:18:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My apologies, I misunderstood. I thought your question was in some way related to the conversation that was happening in this thread. I didn’t realize you were talking about something else, entirely. Consider my last two posts retracted. Mine was about this actual assault, as opposed to a hypothetical scenario involving some other less heinous crime. I’m the one sticking closest to the subject, bub. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/126 "2019-09-20T02:39:25Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Warning** > > This is IMHO, not the Pit. The “Title/username combo” clearly indicates that you are attacking/insulting the user and not attacking the post, so this is an official warning for personal insults. This was a foolish slip on my part. I apologize to the OP and to the participating posters. I also received a warning in GQ the day prior to this one. I fully expected that one but that just means I should have been that much more conscious of my subsequent posting behavior. Which i wasn’t. I’m going to take a posting break from the board for a while, maybe a month, and get my wits about me. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/127 "2019-09-20T04:02:25Z")
> [@Deltree](#): > > Yes. Even without the passcode, they can be wiped and restored to factory new condition. They get bought from thieves by fences here, then shipped to foreign countries where the authorities (and phone companies) don’t care that they were stolen, and sold to end-users for much cheaper than actual factory-new ones. Needless to say, the thieves in the US receive only pennies on the dollar of the phone’s actual retail value, but they think “hey, ten bucks is ten bucks…” With most phones now after a factory reset the first thing that happens on restart is a prompt to enter the password for the gmail account or the AppleID, depending on what kind of phone it is. Without that password you just have an expensive paperweight. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/128 "2019-09-20T10:53:18Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Now, tell me why it would be a travesty of justice to give these defendants that same sentence you envisioned, if you contrariwise knew for a fact that they didn’t care about the guy’s race, but were just out to have some good clean fun by viciously beating a defenseless person in a creative variety of ways. Because the joyride beating is one crime and the hate crime beating is two crimes. The hate crime beating is everything the joyride beating is, plus it’s a attack on the entire group that was singled out. Is it a bit of “security theater”? Yeah, a bit, it’s not simply a response to violence, but a signal that society will not stand for racist/sexist/something-ist attacks. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/129 "2019-09-20T23:51:03Z")
So…the message is also that society _will_ stand for brutal beatings (including forcible removal of the victim’s clothing) that are purely about sadistic amusement and showing off for one’s peers? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/130 "2019-09-21T00:10:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So…the message is also that society _will_ stand for brutal beatings (including forcible removal of the victim’s clothing) that are purely about sadistic amusement and showing off for one’s peers? :dubious: Yes, exactly. That’s why **cheesesteak** said the act your describe is a crime by itself. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/131 "2019-09-21T00:12:37Z")
Seems like everyone debating this with me wants to have their cake and eat it too. It’s a zero sum game, so you can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/132 "2019-09-21T01:36:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s a zero sum game, so you can’t have it both ways. I don’t see any game going on here, “zero sum” or otherwise. _X_ is not a crime. _Y_ is a crime. _X_Y\* is also a crime. It can be distinguished from the crime _Y_ by having the additional component _X_, and in fact, the law finds crime _X_Y\* worse than crime _Y_, and so the punishment is worse for _X_Y\* than for crime _Y_. This distinction is completely normal. Concocting clever plans in your head to kill your rich Uncle Chuck for the inheritance money is not against the law, but killing your rich Uncle Chuck is big fat no-no. But the two can be put together: concocting a clever plan in your head to kill your rich Uncle Chuck, and _then murdering him according to that plan_, is a more serious crime than killing him spontaneously or negligently. That is the kind of distinction that this thread is about. There have been posters in this thread who have offered reasons why they believe _X_Y\* is legitimately a worse crime than _Y_ (with respect to hate crimes), and therefore deserves a worse punishment. I’m not sure I buy into those arguments myself, actually, but I think I can understand them. But you have not responded to any of those arguments. Instead you have written things that are comprehensively non-responsive to the other posters in this thread. For example, this: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > So…the message is also that society _will_ stand for brutal beatings (including forcible removal of the victim’s clothing) that are purely about sadistic amusement and showing off for one’s peers? :dubious: This is a strawman of profound intellectual weakness. No one in this thread “stands for brutal beatings”. Society does not “stand for brutal beatings”. The actual message of society is that brutal beatings are against the law. Criminals who are caught having committed brutal beatings are arrested and charged. _Everyone in this thread_ wants brutal beatings to be against the law, and society in general likewise wants brutal beatings to be against the law. Second-degree murder is against the law, and should be punished. First-degree murder is a different and more serious crime, and should also be punished, even worse than second-degree murder. But the fact that first-degree murder is punished more severely **does not mean** that the “message of society” is that second-degree murder is perfectly okay. That’s not true at all. Second-degree murder is a serious crime, and is punished like a serious crime. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/133 "2019-09-21T04:37:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So…the message is also that society _will_ stand for brutal beatings (including forcible removal of the victim’s clothing) that are purely about sadistic amusement and showing off for one’s peers? :dubious: Oh for fuck’s sake, do you really believe there are no possible charges here other than hate crimes? Like maybe assault and battery? You can’t believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/134 "2019-09-21T05:44:16Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > This was a foolish slip on my part. I apologize to the OP and to the participating posters. I also received a warning in GQ the day prior to this one. I fully expected that one but that just means I should have been that much more conscious of my subsequent posting behavior. Which i wasn’t. I’m going to take a posting break from the board for a while, maybe a month, and get my wits about me. Dunno if you’ll read this then…but thats a very self-aware and upstanding thing to admit. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/135 "2019-09-21T05:54:41Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Oh for fuck’s sake, do you really believe there are no possible charges here other than hate crimes? Like maybe assault and battery? You can’t believe that. I have made it clear that I don’t believe this or any other crime should be prosecuted as a “hate crime”. The penalty for doing this, regardless of motive, should be extremely draconian. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/136 "2019-09-21T14:21:06Z")
Since people seem to have skipped over my earlier post, can anyone who is objecting to the way this incident was charged state exactly what “hate crime” statute in Minnesota they should have been charged under? People keep talking about this incident as though ‘hate crime’ is a specific charge in Minnesota, but when I looked into it Minnesota doesn’t have a statute that defines a specific charge of ‘hate crime’. People are saying it should be considered ‘two crimes’ or that it should be charged as a specific thing but, AFAICT, in Minnesota it would always be charged as a standard crime with a sentence enhancement, and not as ‘violent crime + hate crime’ or ‘hate crime’. It’s weird to see people upset that a prosecutor didn’t charge someone with a crime that doesn’t actually exist in the jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/137 "2019-09-21T15:20:16Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Since people seem to have skipped over my earlier post, can anyone who is objecting to the way this incident was charged state exactly what “hate crime” statute in Minnesota they should have been charged under? People keep talking about this incident as though ‘hate crime’ is a specific charge in Minnesota, but when I looked into it Minnesota doesn’t have a statute that defines a specific charge of ‘hate crime’. People are saying it should be considered ‘two crimes’ or that it should be charged as a specific thing but, AFAICT, in Minnesota it would always be charged as a standard crime with a sentence enhancement, and not as ‘violent crime + hate crime’ or ‘hate crime’. > > It’s weird to see people upset that a prosecutor didn’t charge someone with a crime that doesn’t actually exist in the jurisdiction. [What about this?](https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.2233) > [@2019 Minnesota Statutes](#): > > 2016 609.2233 New 2016 c 189 art 4 s 14 > 609.2233 FELONY ASSAULT MOTIVATED BY BIAS; INCREASED STATUTORY MAXIMUM SENTENCE. > A person who violates section 609.221, 609.222, or 609.223 because of the victim’s or another person’s actual or perceived race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, disability as defined in section 363A.03, age, or national origin is subject to a statutory maximum penalty of 25 percent longer than the maximum penalty otherwise applicable. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/138 "2019-09-21T16:18:25Z")
IANAL but that statute seems to be a sentencing enhancement not actual crime. A jury would have to find that bias was the motivation. An aggravating factor, as it were. I could be wrong and I wouldn’t be surprised if I were. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/139 "2019-09-21T17:04:42Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > I don’t see any game going on here, “zero sum” or otherwise. > > _X_ is not a crime. > > _Y_ is a crime. > > _X_Y\* is also a crime. It can be distinguished from the crime _Y_ by having the additional component _X_, and in fact, the law finds crime _X_Y\* worse than crime _Y_, and so the punishment is worse for _X_Y\* than for crime _Y_. This distinction is completely normal. Concocting clever plans in your head to kill your rich Uncle Chuck for the inheritance money is not against the law, but killing your rich Uncle Chuck is big fat no-no. But the two can be put together: concocting a clever plan in your head to kill your rich Uncle Chuck, and _then murdering him according to that plan_, is a more serious crime than killing him spontaneously or negligently. > > That is the kind of distinction that this thread is about. There have been posters in this thread who have offered reasons why they believe _X_Y\* is legitimately a worse crime than _Y_ (with respect to hate crimes), and therefore deserves a worse punishment. > > I’m not sure I buy into those arguments myself, actually, but I think I can understand them. But you have not responded to any of those arguments. Instead you have written things that are comprehensively non-responsive to the other posters in this thread. For example, this: > This is a strawman of profound intellectual weakness. > > No one in this thread “stands for brutal beatings”. Society does not “stand for brutal beatings”. > > The actual message of society is that brutal beatings are against the law. Criminals who are caught having committed brutal beatings are arrested and charged. _Everyone in this thread_ wants brutal beatings to be against the law, and society in general likewise wants brutal beatings to be against the law. Second-degree murder is against the law, and should be punished. First-degree murder is a different and more serious crime, and should also be punished, even worse than second-degree murder. But the fact that first-degree murder is punished more severely **does not mean** that the “message of society” is that second-degree murder is perfectly okay. That’s not true at all. Second-degree murder is a serious crime, and is punished like a serious crime. Is there some way we can get you to handle the 9-11 truthers? This is an excellent re-stating of the concepts under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405/140 "2019-09-21T18:47:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have made it clear that I don’t believe this or any other crime should be prosecuted as a “hate crime”. The penalty for doing this, regardless of motive, should be extremely draconian. There is no mention of a hate crime charge in the article linked to in the OP. The suspects are all being charged with assault and other crimes. The only person who mentioned a hate crime charge was the OP himself, who as far as I am aware is not a prosecutor in Minnesota. Hate crime charges are difficult to prove and I doubt they’ll come up when there are so many easy to prove crimes here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-beating/840405.md?page=8)