# Savage Love Column -- Who Was Out of Line? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818 "2008-11-21T14:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/41 "2008-11-21T18:56:51Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > A dom is not a prostitute Oh, she is too. There’s nothing wrong with it, but it is what it is. She gets paid to make guys come. That’s a prostitute. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/42 "2008-11-21T18:59:39Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > **KtK:** nah, wait till you hear my rant about S/slashy S/speak. Then you’ll turn sub just to watch me go Grammar Nazi on people! 😉 LOL! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/43 "2008-11-21T19:02:57Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I didn’t read the full article, but it sounds like she didn’t refuse to clean it and she didn’t refuse to clean it in front of him. She simply refused to be questioned during a session and told him to go the fuck away if he insisted on doing so. Though if he was a masochist I would have knocked him around for a while instead, but to each their own. > > He was certainly in the wrong. You would use physical violence on a paying customer for asking you a perfectly legitimate question? How the hell was in the wrong? What’s wrong with asking a prostitute to be hygenic? What’s wrong with wanting to able to confirm that the equiment is clean? It’s like throwing somebody out of a subway because they ask an employee to wear goves while he’s making sandwich. I think she was extremely unprofessional and probably needs to find another line of work. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/44 "2008-11-21T19:04:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think there’s aything wrong with insisting on a clean dildo, and I don’t see any reason to give a shit what some hooker thinks about it. I think Savage is out of line on this one. Role playing needs to take a back seat to basic hygene and hookers are supposed to do what they’re told. The customer is always right. If the hooker’s not going to do as she’s told, then what the hell is she getting paid for? I can see that we have very different preconceptions about this whole thing, but let me point out that the thing, first and foremost, that SHEESH paid her for was _to submit to her domination_. He was not there for 50/50 or a handjob: BDSM transactions are altogether different from that sort of sex work. Would you feel like a customer at a restaurant who ordered a steak and then when the steak came complained that it wasn’t the chicken they wanted was in the right? ---
**Author:** ![Camelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f17d59/32.png) [@Camelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camelot)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/45 "2008-11-21T19:06:19Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I can see that we have very different preconceptions about this whole thing, but let me point out that the thing, first and foremost, that SHEESH paid her for was _to submit to her domination_. He was not there for 50/50 or a handjob: BDSM transactions are altogether different from that sort of sex work. > > Would you feel like a customer at a restaurant who ordered a steak and then when the steak came complained that it wasn’t the chicken they wanted was in the right? Flawed as that argument is, you return the steak and bring the chicken. The customer is the one paying. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/46 "2008-11-21T19:08:05Z")
Come to think of it **Diogenes the Cynic** , and I know I’m not the OP and all, but I think you would be well served by taking your preconception that all sex workers are prostitutes and subject to the same expectations to GD. I think it’s out of place here, personally. **Knead** Who, believe me, if he could get paid for what he does best and still look at himself in the mirror, would ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/47 "2008-11-21T19:16:16Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I can see that we have very different preconceptions about this whole thing, but let me point out that the thing, first and foremost, that SHEESH paid her for was _to submit to her domination_. He was not there for 50/50 or a handjob: BDSM transactions are altogether different from that sort of sex work Six of one, half dozen of the other, as far as I’m concerned. The guy still comes at the end. That’s sex. > [@](#): > > Would you feel like a customer at a restaurant who ordered a steak and then when the steak came complained that it wasn’t the chicken they wanted was in the right? I don’t buy this analogy at all. It’s only like asking for a clean fork. Even so, the restaurant wouldn’t throw the customer out, they’d bring him the chicken. The customer is under no obligation to follow any rules, only the prostitute is. The John can play along or ignore the rules as he pleases. It’s his session, not hers. He’s the one that’s paying. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/48 "2008-11-21T19:18:37Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I can see that we have very different preconceptions about this whole thing, but let me point out that the thing, first and foremost, that SHEESH paid her for was _to submit to her domination_. He was not there for 50/50 or a handjob: BDSM transactions are altogether different from that sort of sex work. > > Would you feel like a customer at a restaurant who ordered a steak and then when the steak came complained that it wasn’t the chicken they wanted was in the right? Wouldn’t a better analogy be if you ordered a steak, and it came out so rare that you have a legitimate concern about the hygiene and safety of eating it? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/49 "2008-11-21T19:22:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Six of one, half dozen of the other, as far as I’m concerned. The guy still comes at the end. That’s sex. I think you are wrong on this point, but will leave it to someone who can speak with authority to say so. > [@Camelot](#): > > Flawed as that argument is, you return the steak and bring the chicken. The customer is the one paying. > [@](#): > > I don’t buy this analogy at all. It’s only like asking for a clean fork. Even so, the restaurant wouldn’t throw the customer out, they’d bring him the chicken. The customer is under no obligation to follow any rules, only the prostitute is. The John can play along or ignore the rules as he pleases. It’s his session, not hers. He’s the one that’s paying. [Quote=Fuzzy Dunlop] Wouldn’t a better analogy be if you ordered a steak, and it came out so rare that you have a legitimate concern about the hygiene and safety of eating it? [/quote] Congrats, you’re completely ignoring my point about the fact of what SHEESH was actually contracting and paying for. What he went in for was _to be taken out of control of his body and give that power to someone else_. See my earlier statement that his need to submit is what, if anything, places him at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/50 "2008-11-21T19:23:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You would use physical violence on a paying customer for asking you a perfectly legitimate question? > > How the hell was in the wrong? What’s wrong with asking a prostitute to be hygenic? What’s wrong with wanting to able to confirm that the equiment is clean? It’s like throwing somebody out of a subway because they ask an employee to wear goves while he’s making sandwich. > > I think she was extremely unprofessional and probably needs to find another line of work. I don’t do any of this professionally, my sadism is purely recreational. 😉 However, yes I would in the session if that was an agreed upon item. Note that I said “If he were a masochist”. Certain things were agreed to and he didn’t hold up his end of the agreement. As was mentioned, it doesn’t appear that the equipment in question was going to be used in that session anyway so it’s not like it was a situation requiring immediate attention. ---
**Author:** ![Agonist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@Agonist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agonist)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/51 "2008-11-21T19:37:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Six of one, half dozen of the other, as far as I’m concerned. The guy still comes at the end. That’s sex. > > I don’t buy this analogy at all. It’s only like asking for a clean fork. Even so, the restaurant wouldn’t throw the customer out, they’d bring him the chicken. The customer is under no obligation to follow any rules, only the prostitute is. The John can play along or ignore the rules as he pleases. It’s his session, not hers. He’s the one that’s paying. Going with the same analogy, no. If I were the manager of a restaurant and a customer pulled this, I’d let them get away with it once. More than that, and they would get banned from the restaurant. The customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is just a jerk, and it improves the entire business environment (clients, employees, and people who happen to hear about it) when they learn jerks aren’t going to be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/52 "2008-11-21T19:43:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Congrats, you’re completely ignoring my point about the fact of what SHEESH was actually contracting and paying for. What he went in for was to be taken out of control of his body and give that power to someone else. See my earlier statement that his need to submit is what, if anything, places him at risk. I’m not _ignoring_ you I am _disagreeing_ with you. Even if you pay a prostitute to take complete control of a situation for purposes of your sexual gratification that control should not extend to putting your health at risk. Ideally, at no point in the sexual encounter should the john’s health be at risk, but at any point if he feels threatened his fears should not be ignored. It was wrong of the prostitute to ignore his legitimate fears. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/53 "2008-11-21T19:46:59Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > I think it is entirely reasonable to require visible safety precautions for something that could give you some very serious diseases. It’s not like dominatrixes are licensed by the state and have to under go regular inspections of their sterilization processes and carry insurance in case of incident. This is roughly analagous to going to someone’s living-room home-tattoo shop and wanting to see the equipment sterilized in front of you. The sub may have broken some taboo about speaking up, but I’d think any real professional would be eager to set their client’s mind at ease about safety practices, enough so to forgive any faux pas about timing. Agreed. I watch my nail tech sterilize her equipment, fercrissakes. I would certainly expect to be able to do the same with a sex service provider. However, I agree with the others that this should have been hammered out in a non-D/s moment. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/54 "2008-11-21T19:49:02Z")
But what evidence is there that his health was at any time at risk? Absolutely none. Please see the above posts which stress this. For those of you who are making all of this very personal (“I wouldn’t …” etc.) remember that we are dealing with a specific case of someone _other than you_, not arguing in theory about what you could or couldn’t tolerate in a similar situation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/55 "2008-11-21T20:04:51Z")
> [@Agonist](#): > > Going with the same analogy, no. If I were the manager of a restaurant and a customer pulled this, I’d let them get away with it once. More than that, and they would get banned from the restaurant. The customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is just a jerk, and it improves the entire business environment (clients, employees, and people who happen to hear about it) when they learn jerks aren’t going to be tolerated. It remains to be explained how this customer was being a jerk. All he asked for was clean equipment. That’s a perfectly reasonable request. In my opinion, it’s a request that these kind sof quasi-legal prostitutes should be required by law to comply with. I don’t think it’s asking too much to not want to be raped up the ass with a filthy, disease-ridden dildo. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/56 "2008-11-21T20:06:54Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > But what evidence is there that his health was at any time at risk? The question is what reassurance does he have that the equipment is clean. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/57 "2008-11-21T20:17:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The question is what reassurance does he have that the equipment is clean. None. As I’ve repeatedly said, he gave up reassurance when he agreed to submit his will to another’s. Presumably, since he entered into that contract willingly and as an adult, he understood the implications of such an agreement. The burden of the Dom in such a situation is to think about any risks the sub may encounter while in her care and see to them. If SHEESH wanted such things addressed, he should have done so at the time they contracted. And to say this one more time, there is no indication at all in the column that this was something that was about to happen right then and there. SHEESH does not say “she whipped out a dildo and pointed it at my bum with a gleem in her eye.” He says that she told him she wanted to start training him to it. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/58 "2008-11-21T20:17:17Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > Grant you, a lot of the following is assuming she has good business practices - but by and large, pros with bad business practices are not pros for long. How would anyone know if she was doing something unhygienic if they never asked, though? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/59 "2008-11-21T20:22:38Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > None. As I’ve repeatedly said, he gave up reassurance when he agreed to submit his will to another’s. Presumably, since he entered into that contract willingly and as an adult, he understood the implications of such an agreement. “Contract?” What contract? What agreement? He’s paying somebody to get his rocks off, not give him a bunch of grief. He has no obligation to play along with the kink any more than he feels like it. I don’t get where the sex worker has any say at all in the matter. She’s serving a customer for money. Why does what she wants enter into it at all? > [@](#): > > The burden of the Dom in such a situation is to think about any risks the sub may encounter while in her care and see to them. If SHEESH wanted such things addressed, he should have done so at the time they contracted. Why should he take her word for anything? She’s taking his money, I see no reason he shouldn’t be entitled to know that the equipment is clean or to bring his own. What is this “contract” stuff? He gives her 20 bucks, she stands on his balls or whatever. Calling it a “contract” is putting a rather fancy dress on it, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/60 "2008-11-21T20:28:10Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > None. As I’ve repeatedly said, he gave up reassurance when he agreed to submit his will to another’s. Presumably, since he entered into that contract willingly and as an adult, he understood the implications of such an agreement. Pretty obviously, he didn’t understand the implications of the agreement. He believes he was in his rights to ask for his needs to be met INSIDE the scenario. She didn’t. Either way, it sounds like a business arrangement that was mutually beneficial to both parties. And it doesn’t sound like she had any respect for him. I know that the whole dom/sub thing sort of implies you get treated with disrespect, but it isn’t OK for someone to not respect you when you ask for respect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818.md?page=4)