# Savage Love Column -- Who Was Out of Line? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818 "2008-11-21T14:10:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/81 "2008-11-21T22:07:57Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > It sounds like she didn’t have any respect for his behavior in the scene, which I think is a different thing. Being a client or a submissive by no means necessitates being treated with disrespect, but it sounds very much like that’s what he was paying for. That being the case, if he were unhappy with the dynamic and unable to function within it, he had a perfectly acceptable out: safe word. That ends her rights to dictate what he can and can’t say, and allows him the freedom to ask all the questions he likes. If she can’t or won’t respect his inquiries at that point, she’s behaving unprofessionally. Up until he chooses to end the negotiated scene, she’s within her rights (and upholding her responsibility as a professional) to disregard any expressed discomfort or nervousness, to give him the experience he is paying (probably quite a lot) for. I would really hope that doms would have the common sense to exit the scenario for reasons other than use of the safe word. I understand that this is a really strange line to walk - someone asking to get treated in a way they might not like or find uncomfortable, and if you break role because they seem to be uncomfortable…well, its a paradox, which is why you set up safe words. All the same…she’s the professional in this situation…she needs to be able to read the situation. If she isn’t able to read him well enough to provide a satisfactory experience for him, its a business relationship best severed…and if he wants to say “she provided poor service” - well, she didn’t do a good job reading him. If that impacts her business, then she isn’t very good at it. If that isn’t part of her business, then people who frequent doms will be the first to say “this is like complaining about the bad coffee when you get your oil changed.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/82 "2008-11-21T22:09:20Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > How about this as a thought: The people that are involved in the Dominance and Submission subculture do not define this as prostitution and as such to consistently keep calling it that is disrespectful and insensitive. So what do you call someone who is paid to shove things in a clients ass for the purposes of sexual pleasure/orgasm? ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/83 "2008-11-21T22:11:28Z")
I don’t care about contracts that aren’t enforceable in law, it’s a perfectly reasonable request. But she’s free to refuse to service him in the future, if she wants to be authentically bdsm whilst also making money. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/84 "2008-11-21T22:13:01Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > How about this as a thought: The people that are involved in the Dominance and Submission subculture do not define this as prostitution and as such to consistently keep calling it that is disrespectful and insensitive. If I engaged in prostitution I wouldn’t define it as prostitution either. If prostitution is pejorative isn’t it due to the act itself, and not an accurate description of the act? The guy was paying a woman to engage in sexual activity for money. Is there a more neutral word for that than prostitution? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/85 "2008-11-21T22:13:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So what do you call someone who is paid to shove things in a clients ass for the purposes of sexual pleasure/orgasm? A prostitute. And that’s the dividing line: intent and outcome. Why do you insist that someone who is paid to shove things in a client’s ass for the purposes of control and/or humiliation necessarily falls under the same job title? I answer questions for a living. Does that make me a librarian or Magic 8 Ball? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/86 "2008-11-21T22:16:13Z")
Sounds to my ear like what the fellow in the OP did was violate the etiquette of the BDSM subgroup, but as to passing judgment on whether he was right or wrong in this, I have no more firm opinion than if we were discussing the finer points of Druidic rituals. I suspect though that, within the context of that group, he was being rude. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/87 "2008-11-21T22:16:26Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > It’s a little more than just a client’s individual tastes and preferences, don’ t you think? Would you let a whore shove something up your ass if you knew she did the same to a bunch of other men who engage in sex with prostitutes? “Dangerous” might be a bit hyperbolic but I’d say as sexual activities go it’s about as dangerous as it gets when it comes to transmission of diseases. Well I agree, but the contention was made that it was somehow “dangerous” to stop a session and ask for a clean dildo. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/88 "2008-11-21T22:17:06Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Why do you insist that someone who is paid to shove things in a client’s ass for the purposes of control and/or humiliation necessarily falls under the same job title? Are you really saying that inserting a dildo into someone’s ass isn’t a sexual activity? The control and humiliation aren’t sexual in nature? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/89 "2008-11-21T22:17:17Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I answer questions for a living. Does that make me a librarian or Magic 8 Ball? Not sure, how often are you correct? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/90 "2008-11-21T22:17:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well I agree, but the contention was made that it was somehow “dangerous” to stop a session and ask for a clean dildo. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/91 "2008-11-21T22:18:57Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Not sure, how often are you correct? 😉 I don’t care who you are, that’s funny right there. ---
**Author:** ![Agonist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@Agonist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agonist)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/92 "2008-11-21T22:22:17Z")
Calling all sex workers prostitutes is about as obnoxious as calling all people who work with computers typists. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/93 "2008-11-21T22:28:50Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Cite? > [@sjc](#): > > Look, imagine you are taking a martial arts class and you are in the middle of sparring with the instructor and without asking to stop or even ceasing your attacks you ask to see the instructor’s credentials. Yes you have the right to know that the instructor is properly credentialed, but you’ve been going to this class for a while without asking to see them and now you are asking – **in the middle of the class while delicate and dangerous things are going on** – to see something you’ve tacitly assumed existed for some time now. (Bolding mine) What “dangerous” things are going on in the middle of this session which make it somehow hazardous to stop and ask for a clean dildo? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/94 "2008-11-21T22:35:45Z")
To everyone who keeps mentioning ‘the scene’: Humans know about context, but diseases do not. Why should a ‘contract’ allow some unwitting third party to contract a disease? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/95 "2008-11-21T22:37:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > (Bolding mine) > > What “dangerous” things are going on in the middle of this session which make it somehow hazardous to stop and ask for a clean dildo? That was an analogy, **Dio**. :rolleyes: Please show me where someone suggested the issue under discussion had an element of danger to it in being interrupted. Everyone who has said SHEESH was in the wrong, as nearly as I can see, has said it was wrong essentially because it violated the contract, not because it caused a dangerous situation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/96 "2008-11-21T22:42:06Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Are you really saying that inserting a dildo into someone’s ass isn’t a sexual activity? The control and humiliation aren’t sexual in nature? She’s not denying that it’s sexual, she’s denying that it’s prostitution. A stripper’s work is sexual in nature, but is clearly not prostitution. A pro dom is sexually stimulating her client, but is not having sex with them. AIUI, they’re almost never naked during a session (although they’re not exactly wearing their Sunday best, of course.) I’d think that, for someone to be a prostitute, you’d have to at least be able to _see_ their genitals. > [@Magiver](#): > > So what do you call someone who is paid to shove things in a clients ass for the purposes of sexual pleasure/orgasm? In this case? What’s wrong with “Dom?” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/97 "2008-11-21T22:44:18Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > To everyone who keeps mentioning ‘the scene’: Humans know about context, but diseases do not. Why should a ‘contract’ allow some unwitting third party to contract a disease? Did you miss the part where she was talking about using a dildo on him in their _next_ session? She wasn’t about the peg him on the spot. There was no immediate danger of disease transmission. The complaint against the sub is that he interupted the current scene to wrangle over sanitation issues, instead of waiting until it was over. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/98 "2008-11-21T22:48:43Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > To everyone who keeps mentioning ‘the scene’: Humans know about context, but diseases do not. Why should a ‘contract’ allow some unwitting third party to contract a disease? He should absolutely be sure that what he is doing will not give him a disease. I fully agree with that. I’m neither a sub nor do I want dildos used on me, but if I were I would certainly ask about the sanitation issue. I just wouldn’t do it at the time that he did. Asking is not the issue, breaking out of the scene without the proper context (using his safe word) is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/99 "2008-11-21T22:49:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did you miss the part where she was talking about using a dildo on him in their _next_ session? She wasn’t about the peg him on the spot. There was no immediate danger of disease transmission. The complaint against the sub is that he interupted the current scene to wrangle over sanitation issues, instead of waiting until it was over. So when she introduces a new idea for next week, why is it inappropriate for him to ask then and there if he can either bring his own equipment or see proof that hers is clean? She brought this idea up, not him. Why is he not allowed to ask about the parameters for it? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818/100 "2008-11-21T22:57:12Z")
Holy jumping Jesus, **Dio** , how many times do you have to have this explained to you: it’s not what he did, it’s when and how he did it. He violated the contract they had. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savage-love-column-who-was-out-of-line/473818.md?page=6)