# Save my baby . . . kill theirs? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2004, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824 "2004-09-18T08:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/41 "2004-09-20T19:14:24Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > The best expression of a religious answer to this dilemma I’ve ever seen was in the TV series M_A_S\*H. Two soldiers are brought in wounded, both critical. One of them almost certainly won’t make it, no matter what they do. The other they might be able to save if they could transplant a part of the large artery near the heart(aorta graft). They don’t have the right part of the artery on hand, but the patient who is nearly dead could serve as a donor. The ethical dilemma is that they can’t pull the plug on him or take the tissue they need as long as he is still alive, and they have an obligation to make that as long as possible. At one point the priest, Father Mulcahy, says something very much like “Lord, if you’re going to take him anyway, please do it soon so we can save the other boy.” > > This statement recognized that, in the religious view, both life and death are part of the higher plan. It left the final decision to the higher authority and showed humble acceptance of either outcome although it did plead for a certain outcome. The priest in the television show happened to have a specific donor in mind when he made his prayer, but it is no different from the prayer of the father in the OP. “If it is within your plan for someone with the right characteristics to donate the needed tissue to save the life of this person then please let it happen before it is too late.” > > Enjoy, > Steven But why does God need to be alerted to this situation? Why is the prayer even necessary? Surely he is aware of all of those near death who could benefit from cadaver donation. Are those of us with no access to intercession somehow second class in his eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/42 "2004-09-20T19:33:13Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > [ > > Let’s not forget here that God is supposed to be both omniscient and omnipotent. He knows in advance what Satan is going to do, including murdering Job’s entire family (but, what the hey…when the game is over Job can have another family, right? Just as good, right?). He has the power to stop it, but instead allows the infliction of every physical and emotional pain on one who has followed all the rules and done everything right. > > We are supposed to accept that Job was treated this way because he was proud. For his pride his family were murdered. Never mind the material things. His children and even their families were destroyed to make a lesson, so we are told, that Job was too proud of himself. Answer from a Theological POV: Perhaps the intended target of God’s lession wasn’t Job but instead everyone who would live after Job? So Job’s family died, but what was gained was hope for billions and billions of future humans that patience and faith would be rewarded in due time. Maybe that’s the “bigger picture” that God was looking at. Just a thougt, being a Diest myself, I don’t believe in any of the specific versions of God that mankind has come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/43 "2004-09-20T20:09:06Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > But why does God need to be alerted to this situation? Why is the prayer even necessary? Surely he is aware of all of those near death who could benefit from cadaver donation. Are those of us with no access to intercession somehow second class in his eyes? I think there is a disconnect here. The point of the prayer is not to influence the diety, but to relieve the petitioner of the burden. Much is made in the Christian bible of things like “Do not tempt the lord” and “thy will, not mine” type verses. Matters of life and death and the “time” in which they begin and end are not, theologically speaking, the province of mere mortals. If they find themselves burdened with these thoughts the right thing for them to do is take them to their heavenly father and leave them with him. The gift of prayer is relief from worrying about things beyond your control. Once the matters of the appointed time of life and death of the two soldiers were firmly in other hands the good Father Mulcahy then put his jeep in gear and went about his earthly business of doing what is humanly possible to relieve the pain and injury of war. According to Christian doctrine, what I know of it at least, there is no one without access to intecessory prayer. I could not speculate as to what some diety would think of people who would or would not make such pleas, or their reasons. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/44 "2004-09-20T20:09:08Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Answer from a Theological POV: > > Perhaps the intended target of God’s lession wasn’t Job but instead everyone who would live after Job? > > So Job’s family died, but what was gained was hope for billions and billions of future humans that patience and faith would be rewarded in due time. Maybe that’s the “bigger picture” that God was looking at. > > Just a thougt, being a Diest myself, I don’t believe in any of the specific versions of God that mankind has come up with. I think my Southern Baptist upbringing was finally undone when I read **Catch-22** in high school. Whenever I would ask questions similar to the OP my teachers would go through several incarnations of progressively tortured rationalizations until the n would finally say “God moves in mysterious ways.” Heller summed it up nicely in this passage: “And don’t tell me God works in mysterious ways,” Yossarian continued on hurtling over her objection. "There’s nothing so mysterious about it. He’s not working at all. He’s playing. Or else he’s forgotten all about us. That’s the kind of God you people talk about–a country bumpkin, a brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped,evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did he ever create pain? "Pain? Lieutenat Scheisskofps’s wife pounced upon the word victoriously. “Pain is a useful system. Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.” “And who created the dangers?” Yossarian demanded. He laughed caustically. "Oh, He was really being charitable to us when he gave us pain. Why couldn’t He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person’s forehead? Any juke box manufacture worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn’t He? “People would certainly look silly walking around with neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.” “They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupified with morphine, don’t they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer. When you consider the power and opportunity He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It’s obvious He never met a payroll. Why no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him even as a shipping clerk!” All typos mine. Copyright Joseph Heller. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/45 "2004-09-20T20:37:26Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > I think my Southern Baptist upbringing was finally undone when I read **Catch-22** in high school. Whenever I would ask questions similar to the OP my teachers would go through several incarnations of progressively tortured rationalizations until they would finally say “God moves in mysterious ways.” Heller summed it up nicely in this passage: > “And don’t tell me God works in mysterious ways,” Yossarian continued on hurtling over her objection. "There’s nothing so mysterious about it. He’s not working at all. He’s playing. Or else he’s forgotten all about us. That’s the kind of God you people talk about–a country bumpkin, a brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped,evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did he ever create pain? > "Pain? Lieutenat Scheisskofps’s wife pounced upon the word victoriously. “Pain is a useful system. Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.” > “And who created the dangers?” Yossarian demanded. He laughed caustically. "Oh, He was really being charitable to us when he gave us pain. Why couldn’t He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person’s forehead? Any juke box manufacture worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn’t He? > “People would certainly look silly walking around with neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.” > “They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupified with morphine, don’t they? What a colossal, immortal blunderer. When you consider the power and opportunity He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It’s obvious He never met a payroll. Why no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him even as a shipping clerk!” > > All typos mine. > > Copyright Joseph Heller. Above post should look more like this. Hamsters ate my punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/46 "2004-09-20T20:38:33Z")
Damn still no punctuation. Don’t axe me. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/47 "2004-09-20T20:42:46Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > So, only Christian families have any right to expect help from God? It’s nice to know that your version of God doesn’t give a shit about two thirds of the human race, _ **all** _ of whom he is supposed by believers to have created. > > Even if you believe in miraculous intervention (for Christians only), why should any innocent child have to die without having even the chance to make the wrong choices they might justly suffer for? Why couldn’t the “loving” God be asked for healing for _ **both** _ babies? Or, being omnicient and omnipotent, why couldn’t he have just protected both of them in the first place? > > Believers want to invest their god with all knowledge and all power, as well as presence everywhere at once, yet they think he has no responsibility to his sentient creations. A human father who permitted his child to suffer an injury he could have prevented, or allowed someone else to injure the child to settle a bet would be charged with a crime. > > I’ve heard the argument about free will, but in my mind it doesn’t apply to innocent children. To make children suffer for the negligible wrongs of which they are capable is just stupid. And to hurt children in order to punish their parents for whatever wrong they did is utterly outrageous. Killing a man’s entire family (as in Job) to settle a bet is beyond evil. What is this “your version of God” that you speak of? I’m an athiest, born and bred - never prayed to a God in my life. My question was genuine and meant to convey the ‘supposing God exists’ preface, sorry if I didn’t make that clear. When God receives (?) the two prayers, what happens? Wouldn’t God only be able to help the Christian family, afterall, the other family is going to hell anyway? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/48 "2004-09-20T21:48:00Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Wouldn’t God only be able to help the Christian family, afterall, the other family is going to hell anyway? First, not all Christians believe that nonChristians are going to hell. Second, at least one story in the NT has Jesus helping a woman of another faith. She begs him to heal a relative. He says ‘Is it right to give the children’s supper to the dogs that beg under the table?’ She says ‘Even the begging dogs get to eat the crumbs that fall from the plates’ Jesus then goes and heals the relative. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/49 "2004-09-20T21:51:57Z")
Let me revise my first statement- I doubt rather strongly that the belief ‘Jesus is the only way to Heaven’ is held by a majority of Christians. However, those who do feel that way are more visible and vocal than those who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/50 "2004-09-20T22:21:34Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > What is this “your version of God” that you speak of? I’m an athiest, born and bred - never prayed to a God in my life. My question was genuine and meant to convey the ‘supposing God exists’ preface, sorry if I didn’t make that clear. > When God receives (?) the two prayers, what happens? Wouldn’t God only be able to help the Christian family, afterall, the other family is going to hell anyway? Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your writing “So how does God choose between two christian families, both praying for the survival of their children. One praying their child lives through the injuries caused by a car crash, another praying for a heart donor for their child (with compatibility with the first child)? If at least one family is christian, does this make God’s choice easier?” sort of led me to the conclusion that you were one. This whole thread began more as a rant against God (you know, the one I don’t believe in) anyway. I did say that I don’t blame the father for asking for anything that wuld help his own child. It’s only natural. What gets me is that people cling to the belief that this particular god, having the power to prevent babies’ suffering in the first place, not only allows one baby to be injured in a car crash, but lets another suffer from heart disease…and that these people worship that god. Whether he exists or not, I don’t think he’s worthy of worship. Scorn, certainly, but not worship. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/51 "2004-09-20T23:12:48Z")
OP: heh…when my old man had a clogged up heart he said he was ready to hike up to the Children’s ward and start standing on their oxygen tubes to prompt some donations. He was such a nut! He didn’t do it. Chose the multiple bypass and woke up face to face with The Big Guy. My point is, a lot of stuff crosses your mind in situations calling for an organ donation. Not all of it is rational, most of it revolves around ending one’s own suffering with little thought as to the process. Don’t be too hard on the daddy. I’m more or less with you on your points 1 & 2. Not being a believer myself I might offer an opinion about #3. How about: You can’t possibly understand what God’s plans are–you’re too close to the action to be objective. You know what I’m driving at: eggs, omlettes, that sort of thing. Some might assert that God will recall the kid because of Dad’s selfish prayer, others will say it’s because Dad needs an example to illustrate his selfishness to him so he can work on fixing that problem. Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/52 "2004-09-20T23:50:44Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Let me revise my first statement- I doubt rather strongly that the belief ‘Jesus is the only way to Heaven’ is held by a majority of Christians. However, those who do feel that way are more visible and vocal than those who don’t. You’re kidding me? What other ways do Christians believe can get you to heaven? I would have assumed that the vast majority of Christians believe that if you are non-Christian (especially athiests) you are going to hell? With some time to consider your options maybe. If not, then what happens to non-believers after death then? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/53 "2004-09-21T00:26:32Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > You’re kidding me? What other ways do Christians believe can get you to heaven? I would have assumed that the vast majority of Christians believe that if you are non-Christian (especially athiests) you are going to hell? With some time to consider your options maybe. > If not, then what happens to non-believers after death then? The way I was taught was that a non-Christian who never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and who led a good and moral life would go to heaven. He wouldn’t be “as close to God/the light” as Christians in heaven, but he would be in heaven. Not that I buy any of the above, just repeating what I heard. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/54 "2004-09-21T00:38:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > The way I was taught was that a non-Christian who never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and who led a good and moral life would go to heaven. He wouldn’t be “as close to God/the light” as Christians in heaven, but he would be in heaven. > > Not that I buy any of the above, just repeating what I heard. Sounds like Japanese Buddhism - if you give lots of money to the priest at your temple, he’ll give you a special name for when you get to heaven, and you’ll be put in a good place. You’d think you can get away from social status in heaven, but apparently not! ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/55 "2004-09-21T14:54:02Z")
The people in this thread who are arguing that suffering proves the non-existence of God seem to assume that if God exists/ed, 1)He is (or would be) the Judeo-Christian one; and 2) They are entitled to easy, pain-free lives. AFAIAC, Life is _supposed_ to be hard. Otherwise it is unfulfilling. The tradeoff is that being human makes you entitled to a fulfilling and free life. Babies die because death is always with us. Every living thing is subject to death, and if it comes to a baby, it’s not _because_ of anything. It just _is_. The death of a baby is enormously painful to the family that cared for it, but so would be the death of the father or the mother who has 20 or 30 years on the baby already. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/56 "2004-09-21T20:43:49Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > The people in this thread who are arguing that suffering proves the non-existence of God seem to assume that if God exists/ed, 1)He is (or would be) the Judeo-Christian one; and 2) They are entitled to easy, pain-free lives. > > AFAIAC, Life is _supposed_ to be hard. Otherwise it is unfulfilling. The tradeoff is that being human makes you entitled to a fulfilling and free life. > Babies die because death is always with us. Every living thing is subject to death, and if it comes to a baby, it’s not _because_ of anything. It just _is_. The death of a baby is enormously painful to the family that cared for it, but so would be the death of the father or the mother who has 20 or 30 years on the baby already. So explain the point of prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/57 "2004-09-21T21:15:47Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Sounds like Japanese Buddhism - if you give lots of money to the priest at your temple, he’ll give you a special name for when you get to heaven, and you’ll be put in a good place. You’d think you can get away from social status in heaven, but apparently not! Well, it’s not “social status”, it’s “closeness to the light” and it’s not achieved by “giving lots of money”, but by leading a moral life. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/58 "2004-09-21T21:51:18Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Well, it’s not “social status”, it’s “closeness to the light” > and it’s not achieved by “giving lots of money”, but by leading a moral life. So how is paying the priest lots of money so you can get a special name for heaven, leading a moral life? The priest doesn’t ask any questions, takes the money and gives you the name. Poor people can’t afford a special heavenly name, does this mean they don’t get near the light even if they led a moral life? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/59 "2004-09-21T22:43:49Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > So how is paying the priest lots of money so you can get a special name for heaven, leading a moral life? The priest doesn’t ask any questions, takes the money and gives you the name. Poor people can’t afford a special heavenly name, does this mean they don’t get near the light even if they led a moral life? You misunderstood what I said. I said: “The way I was taught was that a non-Christian who never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and who led a good and moral life would go to heaven. He wouldn’t be “as close to God/the light” as Christians in heaven, but he would be in heaven.” You said: “Sounds like Japanese Buddhism - if you give lots of money to the priest at your temple, he’ll give you a special name for when you get to heaven, and you’ll be put in a good place. You’d think you can get away from social status in heaven, but apparently not!” Then I said: “Well, it’s not “social status”, it’s “closeness to the light” and it’s not achieved by “giving lots of money”, but by leading a moral life.” And by that I was trying to show that what I originally described does not sound like the Japanese Buddhism you describe. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824/60 "2004-09-22T00:33:04Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > You misunderstood what I said. > > I said: “The way I was taught was that a non-Christian who never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and who led a good and moral life would go to heaven. He wouldn’t be “as close to God/the light” as Christians in heaven, but he would be in heaven.” > > You said: “Sounds like Japanese Buddhism - if you give lots of money to the priest at your temple, he’ll give you a special name for when you get to heaven, and you’ll be put in a good place. You’d think you can get away from social status in heaven, but apparently not!” > > Then I said: “Well, it’s not “social status”, it’s “closeness to the light” > and it’s not achieved by “giving lots of money”, but by leading a moral life.” > > And by that I was trying to show that what I originally described does not sound like the Japanese Buddhism you describe. Sorry, with you now - thought you were talking about Japanese Buddhism. Still, there would be a Christian ranking in heaven - those who are near the light and those that aren’t. Wouldn’t that build up some resentment? If you were christian and murdered someone but repented, would you still be closer to the light than the person who had never been exposed to christianity but who’d lead a moral life? Also, what happens to people like me, who know that christianity is out there, lead a moral life, but reject it. Won’t I just go straight to hell? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-my-baby-kill-theirs/264824.md?page=4)