# Save Prop. 13? (California campaign sign) Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 27, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798 "2016-05-27T09:59:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/81 "2016-05-28T20:42:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If Prop 13 had been defeated, there was no possible way for anyone to propose a better legislative solution? Other states, of course, HAVE come up with better legislative solutions. Kansas, for example, has two programs, SAFE SENIOR and Homestead, both of which provide property tax relief for eligible residents. In both cases, the property must be an owner-occupied residence, and the owner has to meet the criteria (for SAFE SENIOR, aged 65+ with an income below $19K = 75% of property taxes are rebated; for Homestead, aged 55+ or disabled or residing with minor child, with income under $34K = up to $700 rebate). In both cases, there are limits on the value of the residence. These are sized for Kansas incomes and property values/taxes, but they insure that most people who are unable to pay high taxes are not forced out of their homes due to rising values relative to their incomes, while also making sure these benefits go to senior citizens and other disadvantaged homeowners, not landlords. It’s been modified through the years; the first version of the Kansas Homestead Property Tax Refund Act passed in 1970, and even then Kansas was not the first state to pass such a ‘circuit-breaker’ for property taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/82 "2016-05-28T22:21:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not to mention voters are going to take rash measures to rein in politicians when they are irresponsible, which California politicians have been for decades. Even with Prop 13, can anyone seriously claim that California homeowners are undertaxed? I am. I bought 20 years ago, and for the value of the house I’m way undertaxed. One neighbor who bought probably 20 years before me is even more undertaxed. I suspect he is paying $2k a year at most on a house worth at least $800 K now. The guy who moved in between us and is paying rates more like market value is overtaxed, relative to us. That is the stupidity of Prop 13 - people in very similar houses are paying dramatically different tax rates. The solution is easy - every so often you reassess, decide what tax rates on the assessed value of houses in the area is needed to pay the bills, and rebalance. Putting in some help for those on fixed incomes is fine to deal with the real problem of increasing property tax rates for those who truly can’t afford it. BTW, one reason Prop 13 screwed up California budgeting is that sales and income taxes are much more sensitive to fluctuations in the economy, so downturns really hit revenue, just when you need more for unemployment and welfare. During the crisis they could have fired every state worker and still be running a deficit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/83 "2016-05-28T23:39:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And **John Mace** , you keep saying that the only alternative offered by the legislature was nothing. Do you seriously mean that until 40 years ago, the state of California had no property tax structure whatsoever? No, what I mean is that there was no attempt to address the problems with the existing tax structure. I was there, and people were pissed. REALLY PISSED. They wanted something done, and along came this ballot measure and the choice was pass this or live with what we have. The rest is history. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/84 "2016-05-28T23:50:31Z")
Prop. 13 passed when everybody in CA was adding a ‘0’ to the end of their house value. Yeah, we finally live in a $100,000 House! And we didn’t even have to move! Uh - you want us to pay the tax on a $100K house? Um, no. Hell NO. NEVER! You can screw the next guy, not me! Another “Duh” consequence - you are trapped in your home. That house down the street that you could Almost afford 8 years ago because it was $5,000 more than you could handle? It is now $50,000 more. Did your last raise cover another $50K? If Prop 13 were repealed and a new algorithm devised to fund schools and roads and all the stuff Property Tax used to cover, I’d be happy. As it is, the funds are raised by insane “add-ons”. Water Bill: We had to build a new treatment plant - this is your share. Oh yes, about that pipeline… Local Sales Tax rates vary, depending on how much the locals want Government Services. I bought this place in 2009 for less than 1/2 of the Appraised Value (and 1/3 of the price it had been listed at just before foreclosure) - the County told me that I would pay the existing rate for two years. I can’t really object - this entire neighborhood went for the “Cash Out and Live It UP! and CUT Your Mortgage Bill in Half!” sleazy ARM with a 1 or 2 year ‘buy down’\* making easy money. “Yeah, that payment in a year looks scary (when you actually have to pay on that insane mortgage), but don’t worry - just get another cheapie ARM - No Problem!”. The result - there is exactly ONE house at the end of this street that did NOT default on their mortgage. That is 1 of 10. The lenders are not flooding the market - but a Zillow search on the Zip _always_ has 2 or three Blue dots\*\*. I can’t imagine the Prop Tax on the little houses in SF that now sell for $1+M. - Buy Down - seller pre-pays the interest for 1 or 2 years, making a $400,000 mortgage go for a few hundred a month. Most of these houses had been sold in the 90’s for reasonable (~$120K) prices. All of the Foreclosures show a re-fi in 2004-2006 for $250K - $350K. Once the buy-down expires, the ARM reverts to a real mortgage. The owners **couldn’t** “Get a new mortgage to cover this one”, and **couldn’t** sell at the price needed to cover the balance. \*\* - Blue dot = Foreclosure in process or completed. The listing pretty much always has a huge mortgage from the boom years. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/85 "2016-05-29T00:02:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I am. I bought 20 years ago, and for the value of the house I’m way undertaxed. [This](http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2012/08/14/zyngas-ceo-buys-16m-pac-heights-mansion/#6853-1) guy sold his 16 million dollar place a few years ago. His tax bill, at under 6K per year. Yeah, there are undertaxed people in California. As I mentioned, I’m currently moving out of San Francisco. Now, I can’t directly blame prop 13. Most of the blame lies in the crazy ass public school lottery system that placed my oldest child in a kindergarten on the other side of the city that adds 2 hours to my daily commute rather than the one (that’s actually not even as good) that I could throw a rock from my front door and hit. But, if I could pay 500-1000 bucks a month less in property taxes like the subsidized prop 13 people, I could move closer to the school. As it is, I have to say goodbye to SF. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/86 "2016-05-29T00:51:04Z")
I was once told that prop 13 was voted in (like Nixon and carter )during an era of what my HS civics teacher called the "mean grumpy old bastard grandpa keeps his " vote (in fact she recently said with the rise of trump were in for another era of it ) but yeah every time someone mentions changing it all the senior citizens and old folks homes gets all riled up and you see ads and such … ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/87 "2016-05-29T10:08:27Z")
Like **Voyager** , I’m undertaxed now in terms of property taxes, but overall the costs have just been shifted, I have no idea what effective tax rate I’m paying comparatively, and a lot of costs for the local school just come out of our pockets voluntarily - we have a voluntary donation to the School District many in our city give to. Despite all of this, California’s state budget seems to be as good or better than most others, currently. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/88 "2016-05-29T13:29:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Proposition 13 was a measure put in place by conservatives to prohibit the government of California from paying for anything, so they could run the state into the ground and in the process prove that liberals never pay for anything. The Liberals and Progressives held a supermajority in both houses of the state Legislature after the 2012 elections. They could have done anything they wanted, but even Governor Moonbeam Jerry Brown warned his fellow idiots to not “overreach” when it came to taxes. Given the insatiable appetite for tax revenue, Prop 13 is a always under attack even if there is no formal action. But I urge Democrats to have the courage of their convictions and run campaigns vowing to end Prop 13. Even California could turn red. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/89 "2016-05-29T15:08:52Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > The Liberals and Progressives held a supermajority in both houses of the state Legislature after the 2012 elections. They could have done anything they wanted, but even Governor Moonbeam Jerry Brown warned his fellow idiots to not “overreach” when it came to taxes. > > Given the insatiable appetite for tax revenue, Prop 13 is a always under attack even if there is no formal action. But I urge Democrats to have the courage of their convictions and run campaigns vowing to end Prop 13. Even California could turn red. While you’re being smug, you might want to remember this is exactly how Jim Crow laws lasted so long. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/90 "2016-05-29T15:25:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > While you’re being smug, you might want to remember this is exactly how Jim Crow laws lasted so long. Not seeing it. Can you explain the analogy? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/91 "2016-05-29T16:09:12Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > Be that as it may, it was the _only option_ for those in my mother’s situation. No one else in California politics at that time seemed to care. A mortgage-burning party doesn’t have much meaning if your property taxes become bigger than your mortgage payments were, and you have to sell the house. I have no reason to doubt your characterization of Jarvis, perhaps he helped us inadvertently, but 13 was the only way we could have kept our house. If your property taxes are approaching your mortgage payment then the value of your home has more than quintupled if you had a 30 year 80% mortgage. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/92 "2016-05-29T16:10:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not seeing it. Can you explain the analogy? Equating short sighted greed to racism maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/93 "2016-05-29T16:47:39Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Given the insatiable appetite for tax revenue, Prop 13 is a always under attack even if there is no formal action. But I urge Democrats to have the courage of their convictions and run campaigns vowing to end Prop 13. Even California could turn red. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not seeing it. Can you explain the analogy? You don’t see the parallels between two examples of giving in to the loud-mouth advocates of an unjust system because of the politician’s fear they would be turned out in the next election? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/94 "2016-05-29T17:01:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You don’t see the parallels between two examples of giving in to the loud-mouth advocates of an unjust system because of the politician’s fear they would be turned out in the next election? How is prop 13 more “unjust” than Social Security? But no, I don’t see the parallel between apartheid and grandfathering in certain taxes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/95 "2016-05-29T17:26:59Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Or a financial one. Grandma only has a tax issue if she has enjoyed a huge increase in the home value (poor Nana!). A home equity loan on that windfall would solve the problem. > . No, since you have to **PAY BACK** that home equity loan, and Grandma is on a fixed income.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/96 "2016-05-29T17:28:16Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > So? They can sell their home, which is now worth a ton more than they bought it for and that’s a bad thing? Not can. They always could. Now they HAVE to. And guess what, prices around them have been going up as well which means they either have the EXACT same problem with property taxes unless they move 30 miles away from their neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/97 "2016-05-29T17:42:15Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Not can. They always could. Now they HAVE to. And guess what, prices around them have been going up as well which means they either have the EXACT same problem with property taxes unless they move 30 miles away from their neighborhood. …unless they move **300 miles** away from their neighborhood… ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/98 "2016-05-29T17:48:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If your property taxes are approaching your mortgage payment then the value of your home has more than quintupled if you had a 30 year 80% mortgage. Well, I am not an economist, but I think you’re missing the larger point - not only were values increasing, but RATES were increasing as well. Did you factor that into your calulation? In any event, the “on paper” valuation was essentially pointless to my mother’s value of being able to afford to keep the home in the family. Someone above suggested a home equity loan as a solution, but that’s just borrowing money and paying additional costs (interest) on top of the expense of the escalating taxes. It might have made sense as a ‘holding action’ (if Mom could have qualified) but not solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/99 "2016-05-29T17:51:19Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Not can. They always could. Now they HAVE to. And guess what, prices around them have been going up as well which means they either have the EXACT same problem with property taxes unless they move 30 miles away from their neighborhood. Worse, actually, because of expenses involved in buying and selling real estate. In some ways it reminds me of the issues being discussed regarding gentrification of neighborhoods “if they can’t afford to stay here, screw them, they’ll have to move to someplace they can afford”. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798/100 "2016-05-29T18:14:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, since you have to **PAY BACK** that home equity loan, and Grandma is on a fixed income.:rolleyes: Which she can easily do because, by definition of this discussion, her house has skyrocketed in value. If it hadn’t skyrocketed in value, her taxes didn’t go up. She can take a loan on that increase value and use it to pay the taxes and eventually give it back to pay the loan. > [@DrDeth](#): > > …unless they move **300 miles** away from their neighborhood… So, it’s better to set up a system where everyone who didn’t have the foresight to buy real estate when they were four years old has to move 300 miles away? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-prop-13-california-campaign-sign-huh/755798.md?page=6)